Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

[Morteza]

...
You actually tried to claim that Ross Brawn was simply a passenger at Benetton and Ferrari !

So please enlighten us, what did RB actually do at those teams, other than representing MrM?

What is he actually doing at MGP is a bigger question, X. But MGP's disastrous situation raises what you're asking about his position in previous teams. It seems he was just a puppet!

[Cocles]

I with X. You Merc fans were claiming the W03 would stop climate change and bring world peace.

Show me where JET or I EVER said that. Not rheotorical. Show me. You're putting words in our mouth. JET and I have been very consistent with our opinions of the W03 and W04 and have NEVER overstated the W03.

The ball is in your court. Show us where. We've been reasonably reserved regarding the W03.

[SeijaKessen]

I with X. You Merc fans were claiming the W03 would stop climate change and bring world peace.

Show me where JET or I EVER said that. Not rheotorical. Show me. You're putting words in our mouth. JET and I have been very consistent with our opinions of the W03 and W04 and have NEVER overstated the W03.

The ball is in your court. Show us where. We've been reasonably reserved regarding the W03.

The only information we can glean from the testing occurs during race simulation runs.
Because its at this stage we can guess their fuel loads accurately and also see the state of the tyres they're on before they leave the pits.

People expecting Mercedes to challenge Red bull are completely unrealistic. The W03, in current guise at least is not that machine.
On the other hand people expecting Mercedes to go backwards are also jumping the gun far too quickly.
Lets look at the facts shall we.

Rosberg completed a race simulation last week(colder conditions, less grip) at an average of 1m28.127
This compares with Grosjeans average lap simulation run of 1m29.042.

Now people had their eye brows raised by the Lotus, but the Mercedes W03 did its sim under the radar so to speak.
Also, there are new bits being tested this weekend(as every other team). Lets wait and see but the signs so far is that this car is an improvement on the W02 and relative to the competition.

Thats all we can ask for at this point.

Then you said...

I'm predicting third place.

I also predict that if Schumi passes Vettel on merit, on the track, it'll be considered the pass of the season and race announcers across the world will lose their voices as it happens.

And finally, I predict that if Schumi wins a race, a montage of him doing it to this soundtrack will play before the next race:
http://youtu.be/ih89GCBkHmg?t=1m10s

Third place is far from reserved.

Wasn't Norby making the same prediction about 3rd?

Edit: I do give you credit for posting normally as opposed to what vocal fanboys probably would have posted. The problem is at this point in the season, JET continued downplaying how screwed up things are at MGP and has now apparently decided to no longer post here as a result of being called on it. I get the love for the Silver Arrows, I really do. But this is not a true Mercedes team. It's still a British team with silver paint.

[zyphro]

Edit: I do give you credit for posting normally as opposed to what vocal fanboys probably would have posted. The problem is at this point in the season, JET continued downplaying how screwed up things are at MGP and has now apparently decided to no longer post here as a result of being called on it. I get the love for the Silver Arrows, I really do. But this is not a true Mercedes team. It's still a British team with silver paint.

Just like the Mercedes ahem Illmor engines .

[SeijaKessen]

Edit: I do give you credit for posting normally as opposed to what vocal fanboys probably would have posted. The problem is at this point in the season, JET continued downplaying how screwed up things are at MGP and has now apparently decided to no longer post here as a result of being called on it. I get the love for the Silver Arrows, I really do. But this is not a true Mercedes team. It's still a British team with silver paint.

Just like the Mercedes ahem Illmor engines .

Bingo.

[Gerhard Berger]

...
You actually tried to claim that Ross Brawn was simply a passenger at Benetton and Ferrari !

So please enlighten us, what did RB actually do at those teams, other than representing MrM?

just like any other technical director - overseeing the whole technical team (aerodynamicists, designers), improving processes, hiring of junior engineers, overseeing yearly development of the car. At Ferrari the job was even more challenging for him because when he arrived the design team was in England and there was no windtunnel in Maranello.

In addition, at Ferrari (and i belive also at Benetton) he was head of on track operations which meant he had the final say on all strategy calls. The improvement was clear to see from 1997 onwards.

[Cocles]

Then you said...

I'm predicting third place.

I also predict that if Schumi passes Vettel on merit, on the track, it'll be considered the pass of the season and race announcers across the world will lose their voices as it happens.

And finally, I predict that if Schumi wins a race, a montage of him doing it to this soundtrack will play before the next race:
http://youtu.be/ih89GCBkHmg?t=1m10s

Third place is far from reserved.

Wasn't Norby making the same prediction about 3rd?

Edit: I do give you credit for posting normally as opposed to what vocal fanboys probably would have posted. The problem is at this point in the season, JET continued downplaying how screwed up things are at MGP and has now apparently decided to no longer post here as a result of being called on it. I get the love for the Silver Arrows, I really do. But this is not a true Mercedes team. It's still a British team with silver paint.

We expected the W03 to be faster than the W02, that was reasonable. Therefore I predicted the W03 would do one notch better in the WCC than the W02. So yes, I'd say my speculation regarding third place was reasonable and reserved. I expected them to leap frog Ferrari, and I also expected Lotus to repeat 2011 by losing the development race. (If there was anyone I over hyped in those posts it was Vettel, who I expected to be running off with the championship again this year.)

Personally, I still hope (pray) that they'll reach third, but it's going to take a serious shift for that to happen.

I think JET's reaction is understandable. If the critics within this thread were all like Marcush, we wouldn't have a problem. Unfortunately, a number of those critics openly want this team to fail and take glee when it falters. That'd be fine, except they seem to take equal glee in laughing at the fans. This place shouldn't be like that. What I'd hope to find here are would-be F1 engineers, concerned for this team and trying to figure out specific, well spelled out solutions. As it is... the mods have described this as literally the worst thread on the forum.

As for the over-hyping, I'll give you this, Seija. There are two groups of fanboys in this thread: Merc fans, and Schumie fans. I'm a part of both groups. The straight Schumie fans do tend to be rather hot/cold about the team depending on how they're currently doing. When the team was doing well earlier this season, I do seem to remember hearing the WDC word thrown around a little. That's probably what you were remembering. The straight Merc fans though have remained reserved.

Call it a British team in silver paint all you want, but the fact remains that I am a Mercedes fan. My father has raced a Mercedes-Benz for over 30 years now, and the factory awarded him the MB Silver Star for his efforts. I come from a Mercedes family. Brits in silver paint or not, this is the team that MB has chosen to represent them, and as a Mercedes fan, I will support this team... in sickness and in health.

[Raptor22]

Non of the Merc fans who are rubbishing them WANTs to see MErc fail. They all want Merc to succeed.
However, fans also don;t like be lied to and sold a lemon as an orange that just is't ripe yet. Taking the long erm view, its understandable that these fans can theres been no progress and simply won't raise their hope or lower they expectations. What is playing out is the drying up of the patience well.
Without a history of successful car development through theseason this team cannot hope to continue to retain fans unless they can demonstrate the ability to turn things around. No demonstrate, no belief.

its really not that difficult to understand.

[zyphro]

Non of the Merc fans who are rubbishing them WANTs to see MErc fail. They all want Merc to succeed.
However, fans also don;t like be lied to and sold a lemon as an orange that just is't ripe yet. Taking the long erm view, its understandable that these fans can theres been no progress and simply won't raise their hope or lower they expectations. What is playing out is the drying up of the patience well.

This.

I firmly believe MS and NR can achieve great things, however, they're being stagnated and their efforts wasted in a ----box which seemingly has had very little development compared to others around them.

[munudeges]

But this is not a true Mercedes team. It's still a British team with silver paint.

It's still BAR, that's the problem.

[munudeges]

It's not surprising that you don't get it. You actually tried to claim that Ross Brawn was simply a passenger at Benetton and Ferrari !

Besides being a trackside operations manager with a glorified Technical Director title that made him sound more important than he really was, just what did he do? When Ferrari needed a new design office they called Rory Byrne in Thailand. He designed and built the cars, and that responsibility is the be-all and end-all in a team. If you're not doing that and you have TD as your job title then that's overinflation.

[diego1960]

We just had to have that disaster of a weekend before summer break didn't we? Just to think about it for the next 4-5 weeks. It's really sad to see MSC waste the last years of his great career racing for those amateurs. I am definately sure he won't bother to sign an extension on his contract as there seemingly is no improvement of the team, and he will choose retirement over another 1-2 seasons of strolling in the midfield battling for low points with the likes of Vergne and Maldonado. Sad to see really. On the other hand, I am not sure he will be able to live with himself if he doesn't succeed, and by that I mean win at least once.

For Nico, I think there might be an opportunity to join Ferrari, and although he is a fast driver I still think that it would be a wrong career move as he would be mentally destroyed by an Alonso in his prime. Afterall, Ferrari is his team, and I don't think for a moment that he would allow Nico the same opportunities. Speculation that is, but I think that it has valid points from the little that we know of his character. All in all, we see that for now he is stuck with Merc, and must try to improve and help the team improve too. It is his chance to become somewhat of a legend in Germany, just imagine Merc pulling a Red-Bull for example.

As for Merc, it's a dreadful situatuin they find themselves into. I kind of understand both x and JET, although I think they both use extremes to illustrate their point of view, the one with constant bashing of Ross and Merc and the other still keeping faith with the team even after 3 seasons of disappointment. I at least am deeply disappointed by the rate they fall backwards. I know Hungary is not representive but the truth is that W03 was once a fast car at least at Q and a bit slower in the races and now it is a total dog. Lotus has overtaken us on all level with a smaller budget and find themselves with a a car that works really well under most conditions whereas Merc want the stars to allign in order to compete at the front. I really wish they could turn things around but I am a pessimist, and I find them more likely to pull the plug, although signing Elliot would be a bizarre move if they did. I'm really really sad about it, th whole idea of Schumacher and the return of the Silver Arrows was like a dream for us all and ended up as a nightmare due to W01, W02 and maybe W03 being "dogs", the team lacking organization and proper development most of the time and MSC finding himself rusty in 2010 and really unlucky in 2012, just when he seems to have found his confidence and speed. He now seems like he is on 2006 standards and is driving the car on merit, sad to see Merc destroying his chances of a win in the begining of the year.

I hope for the best, there is still time to make it work for both MSC and the Silver Arrows, but I fear for the worst, that the time we will be fighting with kamikaze Petrov lies ahead...

[sidmiester]

lol i like that idea that team will be under heavy scrutiny lol

but then they will probably have to build factory from scratch incl. windtunnel... unless they use windtunnel of manufacturing section...

they must have their own windtunnel for commercial vehicle designing and testing dont they ,,, im sure they do... though i have no idea whether those windtunnel meets specification to that of f1.... i am just a general fan of f1. not expert

Wouldn't it be easy for Merc to break the RRA? Split resources with Merc F1 and their other divisions .

one of the reasons why mercedes bought brawn was so that they could pour less money than they have been at mclaren, and they support RRA, mercedes are trying to be cost effective and winning team at the same time.

but mercedes will never do what mclaren and ferrari do. the f1 racing division is separate division for them and they will keep that way.

[sidmiester]

whatever the problem they are having, ... next year will be final straw for me. though as a fan i am utterly disappointed with this team, however i have hopes on costa/willis/elliot combo. we havent seen their full work just yet so we can maybe save the judgement for next year.

the car is good but not good enough i think they are loosing it because of development race. but i think ross had good 3 years of chance he should be removed. so thinking that ross made enormous money buying the team for 1 pound and selling to mercedes for so much and making dirty money and yet not bringing any decent results... why should brawn stay???? legend he maybe in the paddock.. what counts is what he is doing now...


also does anyone think that guy ... who is chief designer for W03 ... john owen is he any good? i have a gut feeling that he sucks... cause he comes from honda days...

bigois for me wasnt a good aerodynamicist, shows his track record other than brawn/mercedes that he had done awful work at williams... and they got rid of him.

feels like lot of brawn success was due to zorg zander being a chief designer and them having plenty of time to think of BGP 001 than rivals.

now since w04 design will be solely under the leadership of aldo costa, i think we can see a better consistent performance from w04 because w03 is mostly bell/bigois/owen work possibly. and costa and willis has no input in current prject whatsoever... unless they are still involved in development programs and R&D

also i think ross should go, bigois gone, john owen should also leave, and bell should take over as main man with him scrutinizing and analysing this year performance and get rid of some people working in R&D and aero department. not all can be removed but people who have been in the team long enough ... since honda days... they should go.. !! otherwise i dont see why they would improve much even next year.
Bell should bring new people under his recommendation or under elliot or willis or costa recommendation. i think slowly but surely this team needs from change, a breath of fresh air.

this team needs people who are innovative, who can work under pressure and react and find solution, just because some of the people who have huge experience or PHD or brainy doesnt mean they would be successful...
they need people who are smart and knows the f1 business well...



....

any opinion on john owen, chief designer of mercedes since 2010..-

[sidmiester]

n smikle wrote:These are the problem:

Chief designer MGP :John Owen
Head of Aerodynamics MGP:Loic Bigois
Chief Engineer MGP : Russell Cooley



These two are responsible for the initial design of the car.



I agree with the above. No disrespect to John Owen and Loic Bigois, but they have never produced a championship contender apart from the rule-bending BGP001.