This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
marcush. wrote:
The piece about Schumi broadcasted by RTL pre race was very very touching.
He openly admitted that Benetton cheated back then and he admitted to realising todays he should not have allowed this back then..
can you expand on this - the RTL piece?
i find it very hard to believe that schumi would say that in his 94/95 championship winning years, that the car was illegal - infact, there is no way he said this - so i dont believe you lol.
The only thing I think he could have been referring to was the Spa 94 race when his car was found illegal coz of the plank. Maybe you are confused?
i doubt he would mention stuff about a 'switched off traction control' etc...etc...
got a link to video or anything?
No ,he actually came across very sad admitting to having played foul as a team.no mention of Spa .unfortunatelly it´s not available anywhere methinks..
Ross Brawn wrote:"I think there are a lot of non-linear effects with these tyres and if you get a little bit more downforce you actually gain more than you would expect because you actually put the tyres into the right working range and region."
Non-linearity can sometimes be very annoying as obviously it forces you to map out the parameter space much more exhaustively, which obviously for F1 takes more time, but the other annoyance is the potential for over fitting the data, especially if the response variable is highly non-linear, or even non-parametric. That has its own set of difficulties.
It sounds like they will add some drag efficient downforce to the car. I get the impression from the above that they had perhaps dismissed adding drag-efficient downforce as a solution as their (linear) modelling implied that even with the df they could add,they still would not make up the necessary time differences. So they were scratching their heads thinking, "well, it can't be downforce, because we'd need an extra 80 points to make up this time, and we don't think we can even make more than 30 over the course of the year". But they are now perhaps noticing the non-linearity. I wonder if, therefore, the McLaren upgrade was not as huge an increase in downforce as might have been imagined, but that it was...just right, and just enough?
Hmm, interesting. So finally they have noticed that some more efficient aero part could make the day better. It sounds obvious in the modern area of Formula 1.
But one more interesting quotation form Brawn:
"We suffer from mid-corner understeer and we can't dial out that understeer because we then have [corner] entrance and exit issues. But it's almost a classic racing car problem because when you reach the limit of the car it behaves in a certain way. The range of balance in the car is probably too great at the moment and that could be improved by the aerodynamic or mechanical side and we are working on both aspects to improve the car."
So at least we know they are working, not just on the aero section but also on the mechanical side of the car. Looks like Costa, Willis and Elliot nowadays very busy.
Anyway, what does it mean that the range of balance in the car is too great?
Michael Schumacher: When you start out in a team, you have to get the teamwork going and then you get something back.
Adamski wrote:Hmm, interesting. So finally they have noticed that some more efficient aero part could make the day better. It sounds obvious in the modern area of Formula 1.
But one more interesting quotation form Brawn:
"We suffer from mid-corner understeer and we can't dial out that understeer because we then have [corner] entrance and exit issues. But it's almost a classic racing car problem because when you reach the limit of the car it behaves in a certain way. The range of balance in the car is probably too great at the moment and that could be improved by the aerodynamic or mechanical side and we are working on both aspects to improve the car."
So at least we know they are working, not just on the aero section but also on the mechanical side of the car. Looks like Costa, Willis and Elliot nowadays very busy.
Anyway, what does it mean that the range of balance in the car is too great?
Well, they are always saying that they work hard to improve the car, but since Monaco we havent see any proof of this, so until I see new pieces in the car I wont believe a single word.
I have problems to understand that expression too.
Adamski wrote:
Anyway, what does it mean that the range of balance in the car is too great?
The car doesn't like corners that are seemingly 'long', because the car seems to understeer and cannot grip. Whilst in fast, quick turns, they have no problems whatsoever.
"[...]
The range of balance in the car is probably too great at the moment and that could be improved by the aerodynamic or mechanical side and we are working on both aspects to improve the car."
[...]
Anyway, what does it mean that the range of balance in the car is too great?
It means, "We have no idea how to balance the car, only how to make it less unbalanced."
I certainly hear a bell ringing....Does Brawn follow this thread perhaps?
It´s all to easy to get lost in the woods with setup choices but I think the basics should be well known in a top team and one of those is the golden rule to cross check your developments ending your days work reverting to your old baseline and see if it all is really better .
If that really is the case shovlin and the whole gang of ol hands could be sent into retirement.. I just don´t want to believe they fell into such a trap.
marcush. wrote:I certainly hear a bell ringing....Does Brawn follow this thread perhaps?
It´s all to easy to get lost in the woods with setup choices but I think the basics should be well known in a top team and one of those is the golden rule to cross check your developments ending your days work reverting to your old baseline and see if it all is really better .
If that really is the case shovlin and the whole gang of ol hands could be sent into retirement.. I just don´t want to believe they fell into such a trap.
McLaren fell into the same trap, so fire em all as well then?
Or just double standards because this is Mercedes and can do no right?
Actually, I do think part of MGP's struggles are due to a lack of understanding of their car, and being unable to unlock the full potential. But it's not the sole reason for their demise during the season - that's down to a lack of updates IMO. And I fear it's too late now.
People dont understand that Mercedes is a topteam because of the name. Mercedes should receive the same treament Red Bull when the started there project. Mercedes is trying to build a car they can be used as a baseline for the coming seasons. Newey uses the RB5-6 as basline the design a car to comply with the rules of that particular season. Mercedes started with the W01 the car had some design flaws. The W02 is hole new design concept longer wheelbase etc. The W03 is the first evolution of the W02. I was quite surprised at the beginning of the year how the team made such a big step forward with the W03. Quali pace was really good. But the W03 also had it design flaw, the tire deg and understanding the car to unlock its full potential. Brawn would not use the word "potential' if the number from the wind tunnels and CFD where poor to. If Mercedes can sort this car out with the comming upgrades. The W04 should be a front-runner. And to produce a race winning car in 3 year time, is a achievement that we as fans of this team could appreciate a little more I think. Because MGP is not spending crazy money like Ferrari, Mclaren and Red Bull. I only hope that MSC can profite from his work and is still in F1 next year. Because Nico could be a contender next year. The 2nd evolution of the W02 is going to be a great car. Willis,Bell,Brawn, Costa and Mike Elliot onboard. The knowledge and know-how is defenitly there, now its only about applying it good in to next car. Costa and Willis are also now involved form the beginning of building the W04. I am really positive about this team, because the are on the right road. There 3 car build is a race winning car, Red bull got there eventually with there 5th car. So please dont be so hard on this team. Never forget that when Mercedes took over, Brawn GP the previous incarnations of this team. Never won a race in 10! years,BAR-Honda and Honda Racing never won a single race. So there is no foundation where brawn could build upon. Another difference is that Red bull had the luxury of testing on a real track for hours, to develop there car.
Last edited by kooleracer on 04 Sep 2012, 19:54, edited 1 time in total.
Irvine:"If you don't have a good car you can't win it, unless you are Michael or Senna. Lots of guys won in Adrian Newey's cars, big deal. Adrian is the real genius out there, there is Senna, there is Michael and there is Newey.They were the three great talents."
Never won a race in 10! years,BAR-Honda and Honda Racing never won a single race
Apart from Hungary 2006 with the RA106.
Totally right, but you get my point. It wasn't a great team.
Irvine:"If you don't have a good car you can't win it, unless you are Michael or Senna. Lots of guys won in Adrian Newey's cars, big deal. Adrian is the real genius out there, there is Senna, there is Michael and there is Newey.They were the three great talents."
