Formula Nippon cars vs F1 cars?

[marcus666]

Hi! I was watching some FN videos and started to wonder how fast these cars actually are compared to F1 cars.
Could any expert explain to me how the F1 cars are faster due to the aerodynamics. Here are the cars for example:



Compared to, lets say... ...Lotus E20



Would be very pleased with some answers!

/Marcus

[bigpat]

A couple of points:
I think you would find that Formula Nippon are tightly regulated, with very little or no scope to alter bodywork and wings etc.

Even if it were allowed, the teams just don't have anywhere near the budget, or infrastructure to challenge the development programs that F1 teams do.

The design brief to the car manufacturer would have been to provide a stable, predictable, and straight forward car to tune, and as a single chassis class, there is no impetus to chase gains in wind tunnels etc, which all costs money.

It is important to note the cars have a lot less horsepower than F1 cars, so drag is an important consideration. This effectively limits the teams from just piling on downforce.

The tyres, being single supplier, would invariably be a harder compound, to reduce effects of track temperature etc, and the races are typically longer than a tyre stint in F1.

F1 is a development based formula, where as F/Nippon is a parity based formula to cut costs and emphasise driver talent..

[Jersey Tom]

Aero? Let's not forget engine power too, among other things (probably more experienced drivers, engineers, etc).

Fundamentally, you could think of it as asking why Michael Phelps is a better swimmer than you or I. More time / effort / money spent in development.

[Lycoming]

That and a ridiculously large wingspan.

[superdread]

The engine power is with 600hp not that far off a F1 car (about 750hp, so still considerably less).

Aerodynamics are really crude, e.g. no leading edge floor sculpting, endplate sculpting or effective front wing element stacking.
It looks painfully inefficient (undoubtful because I'm accustomed to the current aerodynamics style of F1), but the simplicity makes is easier to set up, more predictable, ...

Without competition in the construction of the chance to get purposeful looking machines is very slim, ever more so as nowadays there is no momentum to make the next generation of racing cars faster than the one before.

The diffuser is really large though, so massive rear downforce. Also as they are running Brdigestones they may well be faster than a F1 car.

[cossie]

The chassis is made from Swift, and is a very stable cassis, they did a hell of alot better than the IRL and Dallrra in developing the chassis, the engines are basicaly old Toyota and Honda IRL engines 600 hp,they were faster than the IRl chasssis last year at the Honda road course last year, which mean they would kick the current Dallrra ass this year also

[marcus666]

That and a ridiculously large wingspan.

Front wing or rear wing? xD

[Lycoming]

front, thats why he's so quick in butterfly

[ESPImperium]

Current Chassis Formula Nippon are closer to a IRL chassis, very little development opportunities. F1 is the other side of this area, non spec with unlimited in theory development.

Engines in Nippon are variations of what Toyota and Honda in other formula with a little added F1 programme development on top. These plants are getting about 8% better power output every season, Which 48HP to 55HP improvements on 600HP is still more than a F1 unit, that if lucky can see 15HP to 25HP more from season to season.

The other aspect to look at is Tyre technology, Nippon are using F1 spec tyres now, the same spec from 2009 seemingly, but its small but crucial differences, such as side wall construction and the distance the tyre can last for, in essence, these are the tyres that the FIA asked Bridgestone to provide in 2009. A week later they announced a withdrawal. The F1 Pirellis could be up to 4 seconds, but generally 2 seconds a lap slower than Bridgestone's.

Lap time around Suzuka:

2012: DOCOMO TEAM DANDELION RACING Honda HR12E (Takuya Izawa) = 1:39.583 [Weather: Fine | Course: Wet/Dry]
2011: Red Bull-Renault RS27-2011 (Sebastian vettel) = 1:30.466 [Weather: Fine | Course: Dry]

[gixxer_drew]

I'm still hoping for the day someone rings me they want to put some man sauce downforce into an FN, a real nasty engine and go after some F1 lap times

[superdread]

I'm still hoping for the day someone rings me they want to put some man sauce downforce into an FN, a real nasty engine and go after some F1 lap times

Interesting question: Could a spec series be faster than current F1 (without a lot of cheating (e.g. fan car, massive ground effect, less safety)?

The problem would be that F1 has very track-specific suspension setups (something not in the intend of a spec series), which would have to be replaced with downforce and, by extend, power.

[ElleMarie]

Years ago FN was an excellent field for rookies. Let's remember Peter Sauber encouraging young boys to move to the asian country to forge them with the kamikaze driving style. Dont really know why nowdays the F1 paddock has no relationship with this amazing openwheel series. Is it because it is sponsored by IndyCar?

[bigpat]

I'm still hoping for the day someone rings me they want to put some man sauce downforce into an FN, a real nasty engine and go after some F1 lap times

Interesting question: Could a spec series be faster than current F1 (without a lot of cheating (e.g. fan car, massive ground effect, less safety)?

The problem would be that F1 has very track-specific suspension setups (something not in the intend of a spec series), which would have to be replaced with downforce and, by extend, power.

Actually you would be surprised at how similar the set-ups remain throughout a season....

The cars are sprung within a certain and quite small range, and the dampers are the same. The bump rebound curves aren't hugely different with springs within a 100 lbs-200lbs range, and are within the adjustment system of most dampers ( if adjustable) especially with the little movement they have. The rest is by ride height, toe, camber, roll bars and perhaps slight geometry changes. Once you find a sweet spot or window for a car, you try to operate within that. Nearly every circuit car, regardless of category is the same...

I remember technical director Gustav Brunner ( ex Ferrari & Minardi) giving an interview to RaceTech magazine. The interviewer could not comprehend that the damper valving from Monaco to Silverstone didn't really change. Totally logical, as the springing didn't really change either. I think the media commonly overstate the amount of changes from track to track....

If you want an example of a "spec car keeping pace with F1, its nearly impossible. The closest is back in 95/96 after all the "Senna" changes, Formula Nippons lapped at speeds that would have put them mid field on the F1 grid. There was Lola & Reynard chassis, Mugen & Zytek engines, and a tyre war as well. The cars were weapons!!!!

Formula Nippon cars & F3000 were a great stepping stone, but F3000 became garbage when in 96 they switched to a bad spec Lola chassis. The cars just didn't resemble an F1 car to drive. Nowadays the GP3, GP2 ( a financial rort for the FIA) and Renault 3.5 race under the noses of F1. GP@, and more so Renault 3.5 are more representative, in my opinion. F Nippon, has a few journey men in it which doesn't help, but is by a large isolated media wise from Europe.

[gixxer_drew]

I'm still hoping for the day someone rings me they want to put some man sauce downforce into an FN, a real nasty engine and go after some F1 lap times

Interesting question: Could a spec series be faster than current F1 (without a lot of cheating (e.g. fan car, massive ground effect, less safety)?

The problem would be that F1 has very track-specific suspension setups (something not in the intend of a spec series), which would have to be replaced with downforce and, by extend, power.

People put double F1 downforce into hill climb cars for the sort of budgets that are less than the gearbox on the same car. No rules.... It would be far beyond that though, thats just to illustrate the point.

There are some awesomely powerful and dirt cheap engine options out there as well... again... no rules can do a lot.

If some multi millionaire had a mission to beat an F1 lap time and wanted to hire me to design the aero I would tell him it is absolutely doable.... Many things will need to be rethought, will be some big hurdles for sure. I will say though, it sounds easy and cheap compared to designing and building a modern F1 car!

[ESPImperium]

I'm still hoping for the day someone rings me they want to put some man sauce downforce into an FN, a real nasty engine and go after some F1 lap times ;)

Interesting question: Could a spec series be faster than current F1 (without a lot of cheating (e.g. fan car, massive ground effect, less safety)?

The problem would be that F1 has very track-specific suspension setups (something not in the intend of a spec series), which would have to be replaced with downforce and, by extend, power.

GP2 at present is only arround 3-4 seconds slower than the present back markers. WSR3.5 cars are arround 2-3 seconds off the present back mnarker pace. If there was a little better engineering behind them on the aero side the lap time would be found in about 6 to 8 weeks, if the WSR3.5 or GP2 cars had a F1 power plant in the back they would be on the pace of the mid pack F1 guys not that long after.

Arround Monaco this year:

P01 F1: Michael Schumacher - Mercedes = 1:14.301
P12 F1: Kamui Kobayashi - Sauber-Ferrari = 1:15.508
P24 F1: Narain Karthikeyan - HRT-Cosworth = 1:19.310
P1 GP2: J. Cecotto - Barwa Addax Team = 1:21.195
P1 GP3: A. Vainio - Lotus GP = 1:28.008
P1 WSR3.5: Sam Bird - ISR = 1:22.163

Around Hungaroring:

P01 F1: Lewis Hamilton - McLaren-Mercedes = 1:20.953
P12 F1: Paul di Resta - Force India-Mercedes = 1:21.813
P24 F1: Narain Karthikeyan - HRT-Cosworth = 1:26.178
P1 GP2: M. Chilton - Carlin = 1:28.980
P1 GP3: A. Vainio -Lotus GP = 1:36.052
P1 WSR3.5: Robin FRIJNS - FORTEC MOTORSPORTS = 1:28.232

Just shows that GP2 and WSR3.5 could be a good bit faster if they wanted to be!