Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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bhall
bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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turbof1 wrote:
SeijaKessen wrote:
marcush. wrote:toyota motorsport is near Cologne in Frechen .
Why thank you marcus. :)

You have more expertise than I in this area, but, do you think during Toyota's F1 participation, being located in Germany hindered or helped them?
That didn't hindered them. What really hindered them was the oh so slow decision making of the team.
[...]
It's a damn-good thing Mercedes only has to jump through three hoops to get something done, and those hoops are at least all in the same time zone. :wink:

(Just a general note: I probably revel in Mercedes failure a bit more than most around here since I'm a Ferrari fan. But, I don't think the humor displayed here is necessarily a denigration of the team so much as it's just a reaction to what's happening. There are typically four reactions to any given event: indifference, anger, sadness and laughter. Indifference doesn't participate; anger is annoying; sadness is really annoying; and laughter is, hopefully, infectious. No matter the reaction, though - and this is important - the event remains the same. It's not like making light of a situation changes it for the worse, yanno?)

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FoxHound
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Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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bhallg2k wrote:For what it's worth, Williams also has a win.
And look what happened to their share price after they won.
bhallg2k wrote:
Ross Brawn wrote:The range of balance in the car is probably too great at the moment and that could be improved by the aerodynamic or mechanical side and we are working on both aspects to improve the car.
You don't have to read too far between the lines to know what he's said here. That means, "We don't know how to balance this car, only how to make it more or less unbalanced." That's a fundamental flaw, if you ask me..
So this is about reading between the lines to garner quality technical information from a quick interview on Autosport?
No, Bhall. It is not the case if you ask me. If it was so "fundamentally flawed", it would not have won a race this year, or shadowed a Red Bull home at Monaco.
What he is saying was in relation to set ups at various circuits. Sometimes, and more often than not they are at sea, granted.
But when they get it right, the car works fine.
bhallg2k wrote: "Hey, look, we won a race. I guess we can stop working on the car now."
That really happened.
Again Bhall, I have to disagree. We know Bigois left in or around April time, about the time they won their first GP. Since he has left, we can see that there have been no updates. Not only this, but updates added have also been taken off the car(front wing pylons), under the premise it affects the cars tyre wear. I personally that was a bit of BS to buy some time to get Elliott started with a Vanilla car that had no intricacies which the team had little or no data on. He could then work on the upgrade pack we saw at Magny Cours.
It is far more plausible, than what you are suggesting.
JET set

bhall
bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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The team spent innumerable resources on their Daffy Duct, which, by most accounts, "stalls" the front wing when DRS is activated. They did this despite both the limited scope of development for such a device because of the rules regarding DRS deployment and the fact that front-wing drag is several steps from the top of the list of drag-inducing structures. I think this was a bad design decision, and that's born out by the team's results and because no other team has even bothered to copy it. (Full disclosure: I actually think the design has other intentions. I just can't prove it. But, whatever it's doing, it's not helping them win.)

The team is now investigating VD despite its questionable value and the inherent difficulties associated with implementing it properly.

The team missed the "Coanda" exhaust boat by more than half a season while other teams have used it with considerable success, even those who did not have the solution as part of their original designs.

The team has yet to reach an understanding of the tires despite virtually halting other development to order to put more focus on this problem. This is made obvious by the team's continued questionable strategies during races.

The team has also yet to reach an understanding of the balance of the car. This is evidenced by the car's varying levels of competitiveness across many different types of circuits. I don't know how they can develop an unbalanced car, as it would seem to me that you have to start from a consistent zero-sum in order to successfully add anything. If developments help them balance the car, as Brawn has stated, it means the items which tend to increase the pace of other cars are but crutches for the W03.

The team has only recently come to terms with a strange bout of anomalous unreliability in one car.

The list goes on and on and...

All of this stuff is part and parcel to competing at the highest levels of motorsport, i.e. teams encounter this stuff all the time. But, only the best ones come to grips with their issues expeditiously. Ferrari, McLaren and Red Bull - even Sauber - are excellent examples of what a team should do while under pressure to perform. Mercedes, on the other hand, seems to be a textbook example of what not to do. It's their third year of full control, they're throwing everything but the kitchen sink at their car, and yet they're falling in the championship table.

Hell, maybe they should actually bolt a kitchen sink to the nose of their car. It can't hurt.

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Pierce89
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Joined: 21 Oct 2009, 18:38

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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FoxHound wrote:
bhallg2k wrote:For what it's worth, Williams also has a win.
And look what happened to their share price after they won.
bhallg2k wrote:
Ross Brawn wrote:The range of balance in the car is probably too great at the moment and that could be improved by the aerodynamic or mechanical side and we are working on both aspects to improve the car.
You don't have to read too far between the lines to know what he's said here. That means, "We don't know how to balance this car, only how to make it more or less unbalanced." That's a fundamental flaw, if you ask me..
So this is about reading between the lines to garner quality technical information from a quick interview on Autosport?
No, Bhall. It is not the case if you ask me. If it was so "fundamentally flawed", it would not have won a race this year, or shadowed a Red Bull home at Monaco.
What he is saying was in relation to set ups at various circuits. Sometimes, and more often than not they are at sea, granted.
But when they get it right, the car works fine.
bhallg2k wrote: "Hey, look, we won a race. I guess we can stop working on the car now."
That really happened.
Again Bhall, I have to disagree. We know Bigois left in or around April time, about the time they won their first GP. Since he has left, we can see that there have been no updates. Not only this, but updates added have also been taken off the car(front wing pylons), under the premise it affects the cars tyre wear. I personally that was a bit of BS to buy some time to get Elliott started with a Vanilla car that had no intricacies which the team had little or no data on. He could then work on the upgrade pack we saw at Magny Cours.
It is far more plausible, than what you are suggesting.
The head of aero(Elliot) doesn't draw up the updates, the design office does.The head of aero runs wind tunnel and CFD testing to "analyse" current or devopment parts. All the lower level aero engineers would've still been working between Bigois' departure and Elliots arrival. The wind tunnel didn't shut down when Bigois left. So what makes your "explanation" more likely or rational than Ben's or X's or Seija's "explanations"?
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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Pierce89 wrote: ...
The head of aero(Elliot) doesn't draw up the updates, the design office does.The head of aero runs wind tunnel and CFD testing to "analyse" current or devopment parts. All the lower level aero engineers would've still been working between Bigois' departure and Elliots arrival. The wind tunnel didn't shut down when Bigois left. So what makes your "explanation" more likely or rational than Ben's or X's or Seija's "explanations"?
But this is really the issue here, isn't it, in a team with basically three TDs plus Elliott as head of aero, who does what?
I though Willis was hired as the aerodynamics director, whatever his title is, so who is really reporting to who here?

An organizational mess if you ask me.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

schumifan
schumifan
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Joined: 28 May 2012, 11:15

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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a 'reasonable' take on things, I thought

http://www.inautonews.com/hamilton-schu ... FgcK0beDcw

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turbof1
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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bhallg2k wrote: It's a damn-good thing Mercedes only has to jump through three hoops to get something done, and those hoops are at least all in the same time zone. :wink:

(Just a general note: I probably revel in Mercedes failure a bit more than most around here since I'm a Ferrari fan. But, I don't think the humor displayed here is necessarily a denigration of the team so much as it's just a reaction to what's happening. There are typically four reactions to any given event: indifference, anger, sadness and laughter. Indifference doesn't participate; anger is annoying; sadness is really annoying; and laughter is, hopefully, infectious. No matter the reaction, though - and this is important - the event remains the same. It's not like making light of a situation changes it for the worse, yanno?)
I liked the humor, especially the joke with the toilet :lol:. But you know, it was a little bit too much. You have to draw a line somewhere, else humor becomes outright cynicism.
I do agree with you: they should have kept updating the car constantly. It's an arms race, you can never lay back. Mercedes did that and paid the price (although what you said about them not updating after their win isn't true either. They brought a significant sidepod update to Monaco). It'll serve as a damn good lesson. McLaren made the same mistake this season between Barcelona and Germany, but were quick enough to do something about it and still have a good shot at both titles.

However, I still believe it's a great team. It's still learning; the fact they had a good car begin this season was new for them; they just didn't know how to cope with it.
The team spent innumerable resources on their Daffy Duct, which, by most accounts, "stalls" the front wing when DRS is activated. They did this despite both the limited scope of development for such a device because of the rules regarding DRS deployment and the fact that front-wing drag is several steps from the top of the list of drag-inducing structures. I think this was a bad design decision, and that's born out by the team's results and because no other team has even bothered to copy it. (Full disclosure: I actually think the design has other intentions. I just can't prove it. But, whatever it's doing, it's not helping them win.)
The question is: did they know that the development scope was limited? We did see Renault last year being quick out of the box with their front exit exhausts, but then suddenly were facing the problem they could not develop it further. Even Ferrari this year took a wrong turn concerning development.
The team missed the "Coanda" exhaust boat by more than half a season while other teams have used it with considerable success, even those who did not have the solution as part of their original designs.
On the other hand, Lotus is doing remarkably well without it. Coanda exhausts are indeed bound to bring progress on the table, but it isn't everything obviously.
#AeroFrodo

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Cocles
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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bhallg2k wrote:But, I don't think the humor displayed here is necessarily a denigration of the team...
No no... Of course not. A team isn't doing well, so you go to where its fans hang out and laugh your head off, while calling the team's leaders childish, uncreative nicknames.

THAT'S what a good person does. :roll:

A lot of good contributors don't post here anymore, because of the behavior here.

elf341
elf341
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Joined: 10 Aug 2011, 19:31

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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yeah I have to admit I agree with Cocles. The constant snide remarks, derision, sneering comes somewhere inbetween bullying (esp when aimed at a Merc fan) and trolling for me.
There is making constructive observations about why a team is not performing to expectations, which is generally of interest to everyone, and then there is trolling. The latter type of comments (should) have no basis for belonging in this thread, or the car thread.

NewtonMeter
NewtonMeter
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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Cocles wrote:
No no... Of course not. A team isn't doing well, so you go to where its fans hang out and laugh your head off, while calling the team's leaders childish, uncreative nicknames.

THAT'S what a good person does. :roll:

A lot of good contributors don't post here anymore, because of the behavior here.
Agree completely.

It's not so much a discussion about the situation the team finds itself in, as a number of individuals revelling in the situation merc finds itself in.

We all know this thread isn't for merc fans to high-five each other. But is there not a problem if fans of the team are consistently required to be on the defensive?
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool...

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turbof1
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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I dont think we shouldn't excagerate it at both ends. Yes bhallg made it appear worse then it really is. He admitted that himself. On the other hand, between the remarks, there is still a good discussion going on.
#AeroFrodo

zyphro
zyphro
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Joined: 02 May 2012, 16:33

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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Coanda exhausts will be raced in Singapore:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/102642

bhall
bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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turbof1 wrote:[...]
Yes bhallg made it appear worse then it really is. He admitted that himself.
[...]
I did nothing of the sort, nor did I admit to it. I said that, because I'm a Ferrari fan, I probably revel in Mercedes' failure a bit more than most. You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who's a fan of any sport who doesn't enjoy the failures of a favored team's rivals.

All the same, I stand behind my analysis of the situation 100%. Further, I've seen little more than different versions of "No! No! No!" in response to my critiques (along with questions that have already been answered many times).

Check out the F2012 thread, especially posts made during winter testing, if you think I've been unfair. I was just as pointed with my criticism of my favored team, if not more so. The only difference is that no one cried when I did it.

Remember: Nothing said here means anything to the team's performance. They're just words.

"If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself but to your own estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment." ~ Marcus Aurelius

schumifan
schumifan
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Joined: 28 May 2012, 11:15

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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zyphro wrote:Coanda exhausts will be raced in Singapore:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/102642
this is good news - cannot wait to see how this unfolds

a natural feeling that this could be a strong wet or dry weekend for mercedes

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FoxHound
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Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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It's odd bhall. I agree.

But you mention Sauber. You use them as an example of a team with competency, yet mercedes sit above them in the championship. I know, you'll probably blame the drivers or some such reason.
Your reasoning does not take into account various factors that have surrounded this team the last 6 months. The amount of egg that is waiting to be had on face is quite substantial should Mercedes turn their fortunes. I have my doubts as you do, but to call them out the way you have is not constructive at all.
Not having a go, I would prefer good natured debate rather than aggressive musings.
JET set