Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

[bhall]

I won't have egg on my face, and I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe anyone will. For the most part, we're talking about what's already happened, not what's going to happen. Beyond that, one can make many inferences based upon recent history, and that's very constructive.

How can you fix something if you don't know what's wrong?

The apologist mindset of those who complain about the tone of this discussion would have people standing on the deck of the Titanic saying things like, "Just give it some more time. We're not sinking; we're just diving under all of these icebergs, and we'll pop out on the other side, safe and sound."

The unabashed love and reverence for a team by its fans does not have any effect whatsoever on the fortunes of the team.

[Cocles]

Check out the F2012 thread, especially posts made during winter testing, if you think I've been unfair. I was just as pointed with my criticism of my favored team, if not more so. The only difference is that no one cried when I did it.

It's not difficult to tell the difference between the frustrated rants of a fellow fan, and the cackling schadenfreude of a rival fan.

It's not the content, it's the tone. I was one of the three who upvoted your previous post, bhall. The largely accurate content may have been tough to read, but the tone was respectful to the fans. And I'm hardly an apologist.

[FoxHound]

This is where we differ. You use references like the titanic, and are so sure that you are correct in your view that you cannot possibly be wrong. It's scenarios like this that people invariably end up with egg on chops.
You quoted a Brawn spiel, to back up your theory the car is flawed beyond repair. Again, brawn intimated a balance issue which rears its head under specific circumstances. Funnily enough, it's rear DF he was on about or the lack thereof.
Hence chewing of tyres. Specifically the rear tyres.
Hence the removal of FW pylons. To balance the wear evenly. Then nothing. For a few months.
Now as an incoming aero chief, would you rather have data on a vanilla car, with reliable data from at least 6gp venues?
Or would you prefer the team added and subtracted upgrades leaving your data reel looking like spaghetti junction?
Honest question bhall, I'm genuinely intrigued as to what you think.

[marcush.]

It's odd bhall. I agree.

But you mention Sauber. You use them as an example of a team with competency, yet mercedes sit above them in the championship. I know, you'll probably blame the drivers or some such reason.
Your reasoning does not take into account various factors that have surrounded this team the last 6 months. The amount of egg that is waiting to be had on face is quite substantial should Mercedes turn their fortunes. I have my doubts as you do, but to call them out the way you have is not constructive at all.
Not having a go, I would prefer good natured debate rather than aggressive musings.

there is a big difference between Sauber and Mercedes: Mercedes is a full blown works outfit with two drivers earning mill of euros...when Sauber is a minnow with an estimated quarter of the budget of Mercedes ...and both changed ownership roughly at the same time receiving a car from the former owner with dubious quality.
So basically they started on a roughly even platform (former full blown worksoutfit having to deal with what they inherited from the former owner..) In a ways both teams had the benefit of some consistency -Brawn was team principal already with Honda and had the chance to work continously in this environment for around 6 years now and Peter Sauber has never completely left the sauber outfit even in the yrears as BMW works team.

To me it is quite logical to see Mercedes in front of Sauber in the championship table -but then one has to say it is pure luck really as both saubers were wiped out before the first corner in Spa at a golden opportunity to score big time.
Realistically Sauber is quicker than Mercedes in Races these days and is somehow a lot better on tyre usage
Mercedes is fighting rearguard when Sauber is attacking ...given their budget Sauber is just amazing bang for buck.

[marcush.]

toyota motorsport is near Cologne in Frechen .

Why thank you marcus.

You have more expertise than I in this area, but, do you think during Toyota's F1 participation, being located in Germany hindered or helped them?

That didn't hindered them. What really hindered them was the oh so slow decision making of the team. The team always had to stay in touch with the Toyota-board back in Japan. Updates actually had to be requested there. You can guess that took an awfull alot of time and when decisions finally fell, it was always too late.
The plant itself is state of the art, full with capable people. The fact they are still open, working now more independent from Toyota, is a given you don't see much. I think they infact had an advantage with that.

I happen to know a few people who actually supplied parts to them .And from my viewing angle it was not just the Toyota mothership in Japan causing the failurte to deliver.
The Cologne branch had an "interesting" view of the world as such and I think a fair bit of self questioning would have helped at times. A characteristic a lot of germans miss actually ..at least that is my perception..it holds true in Motorsports as well as in the whole automotive industry....Sure it is my very own private view and may or may not have any relevance
Somehow Audi seems to be an exception of the rule but then Toyota aleady beat them in Sportcars in their only second race
with their new Hybrid ...so one wonders what is and what only seems to be what it should be..

[Pierce89]

This is where we differ. You use references like the titanic, and are so sure that you are correct in your view that you cannot possibly be wrong. It's scenarios like this that people invariably end up with egg on chops.
You quoted a Brawn spiel, to back up your theory the car is flawed beyond repair. Again, brawn intimated a balance issue which rears its head under specific circumstances. Funnily enough, it's rear DF he was on about or the lack thereof.
Hence chewing of tyres. Specifically the rear tyres.
Hence the removal of FW pylons. To balance the wear evenly. Then nothing. For a few months.
Now as an incoming aero chief, would you rather have data on a vanilla car, with reliable data from at least 6gp venues?
Or would you prefer the team added and subtracted upgrades leaving your data reel looking like spaghetti junction?
Honest question bhall, I'm genuinely intrigued as to what you think.

I'd rather have the more complete picture containing data from all the different solutions they've tried.

[FoxHound]

Yet they have a victory under their belt this year
[...]
You say the W03 is fundamentally flawed. Do you have any quotes that testify this?
[...]

The range of balance in the car is probably too great at the moment and that could be improved by the aerodynamic or mechanical side and we are working on both aspects to improve the car.

You don't have to read too far between the lines to know what he's said here. That means, "We don't know how to balance this car, only how to make it more or less unbalanced." That's a fundamental flaw, if you ask me.

[FoxHound]

@pierce

Fair enough, why?

[bhall]

"Fundamentally flawed" and "flawed beyond repair" do not mean the same thing.

[Pierce89]

The more sensitive people in this forum should know that some of us are criticizing Merc so harshly primarily because they've so comprehensively let Mike down. Not because we hate Merc, but because like Shumi and think he deserves better. Hell, even Nico deserves better.

[Pierce89]

@pierce

Fair enough, why?

I just think more ACCURATE data always gives a more complete picture. Maybe it helps the new guy with a fresh perspective to find a solution quicker than if he only has data on a baseline configuration

[FoxHound]

"Fundamentally flawed" and "flawed beyond repair" do not mean the same thing.

Potatoes/patatas. But as you wish bhall. What would you rather do in reference to my previous question?

[FoxHound]

@pierce

Fair enough, why?

I just think more ACCURATE data always gives a more complete picture. Maybe it helps the new guy with a fresh perspective to find a solution quicker than if he only has data on a baseline configuration

I'd go along with that pierce. But, something is bothering me. What if the team are in the midst of calibrating their windtunnel from 50 to 60%? Do you still chuck updates on the car and hope that initial calibrations are spot on?
Or, do you wait until the wind tunnel is attuned reliably, then start with upgrades?

[Pierce89]

@pierce

Fair enough, why?

I just think more ACCURATE data always gives a more complete picture. Maybe it helps the new guy with a fresh perspective to find a solution quicker than if he only has data on a baseline configuration

I'd go along with that pierce. But, something is bothering me. What if the team are in the midst of calibrating their windtunnel from 50 to 60%? Do you still chuck updates on the car and hope that initial calibrations are spot on?
Or, do you wait until the wind tunnel is attuned reliably, then start with upgrades?

You still have CFD and old tunnel all along. I know HRT uses the old tunnel, but thats only 40 hrs a week(at the most as the RRA limits). Besides, the updates dried up well before the tunnel change.

[bhall]

"Fundamentally flawed" and "flawed beyond repair" do not mean the same thing.

Potatoes/patatas. But as you wish bhall. What would you rather do in reference to my previous question?

No, sir, and this is very important: "Fundamentally flawed" in the context of a car means the car has been poorly designed. I've detailed reasons why I believe that to be the case with the W03. "Flawed beyond repair," on the other hand, refers to poorly designed car that has no hope whatsoever for success. I've never once made this claim, and it's important that you and everyone else recognize that.

As to your previous question: It's based solely on conjecture. Because of that, there's no answer. But, for what's it's worth, I do not think the front wing cascades were removed to balance the car or to revert it to a zero-sum configuration to assist new aero personnel.

EDIT: Meh.