Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
Raptor22
Raptor22
26
Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 22:48

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

Post

arguably, the car may not have reached it natural position due to the hard tyre offering the same performance. Schumacher needed a performance differentiator

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

Post

you are always judged by your last race -
Germany 0 points nough said.
the same old song we have to wait for next years car to see... Brawn is 6 years into it ,Bell is well into his second year ,willis 1 year and Costa almost 1 as well...If you cannot erase fundamental problems in that period or make any visible inroads in adressing them -Fired Gigois .hired Elliot but what happens? they are slow in everything but making announcements why it could not work ...
all credit is used up -shut up and deliver or p..s off.

Mika1
Mika1
3
Joined: 16 May 2012, 20:17

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

Post

Aldo Costa will design the 2013 car, we will see what he can do.
The boss follows me on twitter.

Raptor22
Raptor22
26
Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 22:48

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

Post

Part of their problem is the complete lack of continuity of engineering leadership

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

Post

He was responsible for a few Minardis ,the 2005 Ferrari and 2007 and 2008 as chief designer if I´m correct ...both cars good enough for the title...so yea he got talent ..he worked under Byrne and Brunner in his career so he has been whitness of a lot .there might be hope.
But then ..wasn´t Bell not instrumental in designing the championship cars at Renault for Alonso?

User avatar
FoxHound
55
Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

Post

marcush. wrote:But then ..wasn´t Bell not instrumental in designing the championship cars at Renault for Alonso?
How long has Bell been there?
JET set

User avatar
Morteza
2308
Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 18:23
Location: Bushehr, Iran

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

Post

marcush. wrote:He was responsible for a few Minardis ,the 2005 Ferrari and 2007 and 2008 as chief designer if I´m correct ...both cars good enough for the title...so yea he got talent ..he worked under Byrne and Brunner in his career so he has been whitness of a lot .there might be hope.
But then ..wasn´t Bell not instrumental in designing the championship cars at Renault for Alonso?
The thing is we know Costa is good at least for designing a decent car, but Bell to me is a question mark. I know he was responsible for championship winning Renaults, but still. Maybe it was all Bigois' fault that W03 turned out like this, right?
"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

Post

FoxHound wrote:
marcush. wrote:But then ..wasn´t Bell not instrumental in designing the championship cars at Renault for Alonso?
How long has Bell been there?
long enough to make an impact AND be responsible for this years outright disaster.

Look as far as Toro Rossa (the backmarkers who had the better topspeed to deny Mercedes that 1 championship point this weekend)
Mr.Key is working there since 1.september 2012 .And people are making comments about him doing things differntly and pushing forward AIMING higher and not being content with what seems to be achieveable this weekend..He has already stated the car for 2013 is alread in progress and of course not his base but 40% is still open to his input and he does not find anything yet he would have done diffently.
So he already has taken responsibility for next years car..it will not be an unloved orphain ..like w02 ....

Can anyone explane why MGP did not hire Key? i think he is the sole guy who changed from team to team in recent years leaving behind the guys in a constant drive upwards EVEN AFTER HE LEFT ...FI,Sauber... he seems to implant the right work ethos within a big group of people enhancing their desire to work as a TEAM and spurring on their self belief-confidence in their own ability to solve all issues.

User avatar
Steven
Owner
Joined: 19 Aug 2002, 18:32
Location: Belgium

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

Post

@marcush I'm not sure if James Key would be interested in joining Mercedes AMG given there is a whole team of people who are in charge of everything at the same time. So far, Key has worked extremely well at smaller teams, where seemingly he is given the freedom to work by his own, apparently very successful, methods.

Sauber for one is a team that is said to have a simple, yet very efficient structure that gives freedom and motivates people to progress. I am not sure of the atmosphere at Mercedes, but when there are many people in control, a company tends to do organize too many meetings, creating such a huge amount of overhead that it demotivates people quickly.

Raptor22
Raptor22
26
Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 22:48

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

Post

He was too cheap?

Raptor22
Raptor22
26
Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 22:48

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

Post

Morteza wrote:
marcush. wrote:He was responsible for a few Minardis ,the 2005 Ferrari and 2007 and 2008 as chief designer if I´m correct ...both cars good enough for the title...so yea he got talent ..he worked under Byrne and Brunner in his career so he has been whitness of a lot .there might be hope.
But then ..wasn´t Bell not instrumental in designing the championship cars at Renault for Alonso?
The thing is we know Costa is good at least for designing a decent car, but Bell to me is a question mark. I know he was responsible for championship winning Renaults, but still. Maybe it was all Bigois' fault that W03 turned out like this, right?

was Bell responsible? Or was he accredited for it but only really was responsible for maybe one area of the cars. What About Pat Symonds or was his responsibility dissolved due to crashgate and Bell vaulted in as the star name fronting for the team of people actually responsible....?

User avatar
Morteza
2308
Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 18:23
Location: Bushehr, Iran

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

Post

Found this on Top Gear website:
Some of you might liken it to a Greek tragedy; McLaren's prodigal son ‘not caring about the others', abandoning his generous parents and leaving a trail of destruction in his wake, forever doomed to mid-table obscurity in a team many believe don't have a chance of winning a championship.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

user001
user001
-2
Joined: 29 Sep 2012, 15:55

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

Post

Morteza wrote:... Maybe it was all Bigois' fault that W03 turned out like this, right?

maybe, but personally i think this whole disappointment with MGP isn't down only to one person. the whole engineering body seems too indolent and uncapable at all.

Dragonfly
Dragonfly
23
Joined: 17 Mar 2008, 21:48
Location: Bulgaria

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

Post

I think the opposite. It is down to one person. More accurately - the lack of such in the particular case of MGP.
My humble experience following F1 tells me that heavy corporate style of management and organization is counter productive. I think most success has been where there is one person in charge, the one who takes the decisions and brave enough to bear the consequences and responsibilities.
F1PitRadio ‏@F1PitRadio : MSC, "Sorry guys, there's not more in it"
Spa 2012

SaveMeHollywood
SaveMeHollywood
-1
Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 03:29

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

Post

Morteza wrote:Found this on Top Gear website:
Some of you might liken it to a Greek tragedy; McLaren's prodigal son ‘not caring about the others', abandoning his generous parents and leaving a trail of destruction in his wake, forever doomed to mid-table obscurity in a team many believe don't have a chance of winning a championship.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
That's one way of looking at it:

Here's another I've posted elsewhere which I think Merc fans ought to chew on as well as Hamilton fans:
Lewis’ entire motivation for going to Mercedes-Benz has all to do with those clauses that allow him to “Promote his Personal Brand and Image as he sees fit”.

It’s common knowledge that XIX Entertainment have held a higher regard of prestige for the three-pointed star than the brand at Woking.

The clauses will allow Hamilton to “individualize” himself as a celebrity, a symbol. He’ll be a star (like his girlfriend).

And that goes, even if the car never finishes higher than 4th ever. This is the life he probably always wanted and why he increasingly took on that Hollywood lifestyle which clashed with McLaren’s view of how he should be managed.

Now he’s free to do just that.

Even if the car never finishes higher than 4th.

You’ll know this is true when the clauses actually allow him to appear in different colored overalls from his teammate and he can skip sessions because he has his own photoshoots and is inspecting his own merchandise.

The clause completely separates his own “performance” from that of the team’s.

He can be a “winner” even if Mercedes trundle around in the mid-field. He only needs to keep up the image of being a “fighter punching above his weight” to make the whole thing work.

It must be noted that Lewis is taking on representation that is VERY different to typical sports or F1 representation.

This is representation used in Entertainment (which I have some familiarity with).

So I think I need to clarify my view:

As a celebrity/talent you need to be able to post “forward momentum” or “winning image” even without any material progress. Traditionally as an F1 driver you’d have to say you want to win World Championships and you need to keep winning to keep that brand up. That’s the old way (the MS way) of doing it. Lewis knows first hand brands/talents like his girlfriend Nicole continue to have upward momentum even if she does not make album after album or score platinum 10x in a row.

She doesn’t have to do that. Chances are XIX have advised him that neither does he to “win at the game of life”.

Lewis has tried running with his talent, but instead of him being the dominant power of F1, F1 in recent years has become the Sebastian Vettel show. Lewis has seen that in the age of limited testing, the power of success of a talented driver is limited. If he had won World Titles straight on-the-trot with McLaren and with his dad, Anthony, I doubt he would have considered "other paths to happiness" and I doubt he would have landed at XIX.

But he's there. Because he sees other "achievers" happy there at XIX - even when nothing in particular is happening. Look at the clientele at XIX and you'll know I speak the truth.

Judging from the usual way F1 talent is handled by teams, he's been told the same thing many other drivers have been told: "Wear the uniform, do the work. Make the car faster and we'll collect silverware". His father probably pushed him in the same direction.

He's tired of that. He's hitting 30 soon. He's looking for something else now. He's done it "their way" before and all he has to show for it is one World Title and some other trophies. That may be pretty good achievement. But up the pitlane are people with more Titles than him. "Their way" didn't work. Across the pond, Hamilton finds his Entertainment friends are happier. So I think he's going to do it "XIX's way" from now on.

Take note he still needs to keep up that talk though about the championships and the challenges. Because the F1 "Market" demands he talks as a "fighter" as "someone taking on challenges". And don't worry, he'll still drive the wheels off any car he's in. Because that's his "character". His girlfriend sings at the top of her lungs and he travels around the world doing quick laps.

But the people around him (his celebrity friends and XIX) no doubt have understood for some time that winning in straight terms isn’t necessary.

For people outside of Entertainment, staying ahead with only the “veneer” of high performance sounds like a facade. In Entertainment, that is actually the sustaining goal of Entertainment Representation like XIX.

For Lewis, it now means he never has to worry if Vettel wins 20 championships from now on.

He will be more famous. He will be more marketable. He will be more wealthy.

He will be the “winner”.

This is how it will work:

The clauses in his contract will allow Lewis to run his own "operation". To make his own gear, his own merchandise, wear them even on Sundays (regardless of what the team might want him to use/wear). He'll be his own entity. This is not new. This is how "Ferrari Drivers" used to operate back in the early days.

He will be "external" to the team. He will drive the car 10/10ths every race weekend. He will fight. He will struggle and they will use that as part of his "marketing". Lewis will "have his fun" and if he starts winning anyway? Even better.

XIX and Lewis could try and create an image, slowly, where it's "Lewis Hamilton drives a Mercedes" rather than "Lewis Hamilton is a Mercedes Driver". There's a difference. Why else would he want so much Self-Brand freedom in his contract?

XIX is prepared to use ANY result or any publicity from Lewis' F1 activity REGARDLESS of result. If Mercedes hit a good patch and make a dominant car? Bonus. If they continue as they have? Lewis doesn't care. He's got his merchandise, his endorsements, his magazine photoshoots....

He'll be busy enough "winning at everything else".

The model for "success" for the 2013 spec LH will be these:
Image
Image