Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

[Cocles]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/103459 does anyone know what their young charger is smoking these days?

Even I read that and thought, "Oh, come on!"

[SeijaKessen]

The article about Costa and Willis keeps being misquoted.

Brawn didn't say that Costa was in charge of one car and Willis was in charge of the other, only that one guy was currently working on one car, while the other guy was working on the other one. That doesn't mean they're in charge of those cars.

Willis is the tech guy, of course he's going to be working on the car that's currently little more than a wire frame on a computer screen, whereas Costa is working on the car that has reached a physical representation.

I'm not in a position to dig up the article right now, but I will later if needed.

As for Korea.... uhg.

Well Cocles, that really sums it up.

No one is actually in charge of anything at MGP.

The Italian Stallion is zipping around through the English countryside near Brackley in his 612 with Elliot Ness in the passenger seat.

[Cocles]

As for the wire frame..You bet they already have all constraints in their skeletton design fixed and design their cvars within what the regulations allow .I´m pretty sure a HEAD of anything does not perform this sort of work..No ?

My point is that the article never said either of those guys were in charge of those respective cars, yet individuals within this thread keep speculating as if that's case.

----

As for the rest, Marcush, I'm not sure what you're talking about. Working on what? I stated that cars at different stages of development would have different people working on them. Yes, I think the "HEAD" of something oversaw the creation of the skeleton. I never,however, got down to the micro. That's you inferring stuff from my post that isn't there.

[Cocles]

Well Cocles, that really sums it up.

No one is actually in charge of anything at MGP.

Where'd I say that? Bell is in charge of Willis and Costa. Bell reports to Brawn. (But you already knew that. )

How well those individuals are doing their jobs is a different matter, but there's certainly people "in charge".

[marcush.]

the skelletton is derived from the technical regulations -not something you need the boss doing...He will certainly have a look ,but that´s about it.
I´m pretty sure Brawn was exactly on this:the two kings have both their own kingdom so they don´t have to fight each other.It was his ways of telling the public-these two have nothing to do with W03s fail as they need to work on "important stuff"...
the next second he sure stated MGP is still working flatout all stops removed on improving the W03 ..

People in charge? Who has taken responsibility for the fall of W03 flat on its nose? We hear of difficulty to fatom the tyres still and improvements with the latest developments , and hope for the remaining 4,3,2,1 races... but no one has stated he got it totally wrong with his claim the key to it all was tyre understanding and they have made big inroads in grasping the tyre conundrum which was the sole thing preventing them from winning over and over again.

[mep]

Well, their lack of speed is just one part of the story. That alone could be accepted but there is also their general lack of professionalism which can be seen when they do mistakes even a beginner would be ashamed of during the race and the qualifying. On top of that comes their lack of reliability which is actually so poor that people even think of sabotage being the only explanation of this. Hmmm, when I think of that, it actually becomes comical. Did we ever have a F1 team which had such a bad reliability that sabotage was expected?!

[Cocles]

the skelletton is derived from the technical regulations -not something you need the boss doing...He will certainly have a look ,but that´s about it.

You're telling me that no development is done on the car in virtual space? Really? No one sits down in front of a screen and tries to improve the car? And someone like Willis doesn't supervise this?

I´m pretty sure Brawn was exactly on this:the two kings have both their own kingdom so they don´t have to fight each other.It was his ways of telling the public-these two have nothing to do with W03s fail as they need to work on "important stuff"...

I enjoy your speculation, but that's all this is... a construct you made up to try to explain something we have no reliable information on.

People in charge? Who has taken responsibility for the fall of W03 flat on its nose?

You're inaccurately inferring that we as fans are somehow entitled to a public explanation. We're not. It'd be nice if we were, but we're not. We don't know what's going on behind clothes doors. Perhaps Brawn is taking full responsibility in front of his German bosses. Perhaps he's throwing everyone else under the bus. Perhaps he and Bell are putting on a production of King Lear for local schoolchildren. We don't know. And we're not entitled to know.

We hear of difficulty to fatom the tyres still and improvements with the latest developments , and hope for the remaining 4,3,2,1 races... but no one has stated he got it totally wrong with his claim the key to it all was tyre understanding and they have made big inroads in grasping the tyre conundrum which was the sole thing preventing them from winning over and over again.

So? If you're looking for soundbites to the press that hold nothing but clear facts, truthful explanations, and accountability, might I recommend a different planet? Where is this done anywhere? And here's the non-rhetorical question, why does it only seem annoy you when Mercedes does this?

[SeijaKessen]

Marcus knows quite a bit Cocles, trust me on that.

[SeijaKessen]

You're inaccurately inferring that we as fans are somehow entitled to a public explanation. We're not. It'd be nice if we were, but we're not. We don't know what's going on behind clothes doors. Perhaps Brawn is taking full responsibility in front of his German bosses. Perhaps he's throwing everyone else under the bus. Perhaps he and Bell are putting on a production of King Lear for local schoolchildren. We don't know. And we're not entitled to know.

And that, is why MGP is a failure, and will remain one.

There is no accountability to anyone. The media is barely saying anything terribly critical of MGP. Oh sure they will make a critical statement or two, but what does that really mean? They do that to every team.

Public explanations are important because you forget, if the fan support goes, then so does support for the products that Mercedes makes. Once support for the products go, well, so does a lot of money.

[marcush.]

a skeleton is nothing more than a frame into which you are putting your actual design in - the frame really .This is how you design a car in a virtual world..it won´t allow you to design something outside the rules -which is a useful thing to have ...
remember Sauber being thrown out of the classification for a radius infringement on a wing flap ? Designing with a skeleton base and having this constraint in place the CAD tool would not have allowed the designer to follow an illegal path..

As for MGPs open words.. I´d be glad not to hear anything of the crap they distribute each and every time.Nobody has asked for their spreading of tyre understanding wisdom in the first place -but they came along with that theory selling it to the public as fact.
After several months it´s not the public but MGP itself claiming they have no clue whatsoever about how they could possibly get on top of the tyre understanding..
So we are entitled to be supplied with a public statement of yes we have spent another 300mill € but we still have no idea about how to handle those Pirellis.
They are constantly contradicting themselves and try to explain in many words that it was inevitable or whatever when everyone around them DOES make progress but never they come up and say -we were completely wrong and misjudged the situation etc ..

[FoxHound]

Marcush

Honestly mate, you are entitled to nothing. Why should Mercedes be treated any differently from other teams?
They do poorly, and you want them to sack the whole squad. What if the fail again?
Sack them again. And if they fail again? Screw it sack them!
Along the way, you want Mercedes to publish PR that says "where are terrible, we don't know how to build an f1 car".

Not a single manufacturer has ever publicly called themselves crap. Not one. And you want Mercedes to start doing that? Please mate, it just doesn't work that way, and you know it.

And the perennial sackings.... What did it ever achieve at Toyota? And they had even more money to spend.
When you take all the emotional crap out the way, you find a team struggling to achieve results.
We have no real idea what goes on behind closed doors, but it will change.
Things have already changed, and change will continuously occur until Mercedes get the results.

It took Mercedes over 4 years to win with their engines, but they stuck by it. Imagine they had no bottle and folded because of the high profile blow ups and quit f1? In the face of poor results, and adversity at least they still have stomach for a fight.

[Nando]

I was so against the idea but now i´m absolutely thrilled to see what will happen next year,

Regardless of where about they will be in 2013 i think just the notion of having Hamilton in the team and see what he can provide will be highly interesting in of itself.

I think we might see a quicker car for next year relatively speaking. they have gotten quicker for every year and 2013 might allow them to fight a little bit more for wins and podiums, perhaps not championships.

[SeijaKessen]

Marcush

Honestly mate, you are entitled to nothing. Why should Mercedes be treated any differently from other teams?
They do poorly, and you want them to sack the whole squad. What if the fail again?
Sack them again. And if they fail again? Screw it sack them!
Along the way, you want Mercedes to publish PR that says "where are terrible, we don't know how to build an f1 car".

Not a single manufacturer has ever publicly called themselves crap. Not one. And you want Mercedes to start doing that? Please mate, it just doesn't work that way, and you know it.

And the perennial sackings.... What did it ever achieve at Toyota? And they had even more money to spend.
When you take all the emotional crap out the way, you find a team struggling to achieve results.
We have no real idea what goes on behind closed doors, but it will change.
Things have already changed, and change will continuously occur until Mercedes get the results.

It took Mercedes over 4 years to win with their engines, but they stuck by it. Imagine they had no bottle and folded because of the high profile blow ups and quit f1? In the face of poor results, and adversity at least they still have stomach for a fight.

JET, at this point, you can't seriously believe the current roster of kings and messiahs honestly deserves to be employed still?

No one is asking for MGP to come out and say that they suck. What people are asking, is for them to replace a lot of positions --which happens to be the equivalent of admitting they suck without saying it-- and changing the organizational structure. It's clear the current structure is not working one bit, and as such, when things are not working, you change them.

You keep acting like this team was created from scratch before the start of the 2010 season.

Brawn GP was bought because it was thought to be the deal of all deals. DrZ picked it up for pennies on the dollar believing thanks to the Hutt, that better fortune could not be had in this lifetime.

Also need I remind you that rebadging Ilmor engines with Merc logos does not make it a Merc engine? Please, had Ron the Con stuck with Peugeot before dumping them for a bag of Deutschmarks, I imagine a McLaren-Peugeot would have been winning a championship or two. But even at that, McLaren in their partnership with the Silver Arrows has never achieved the level of success they had 20+ years ago.

[Cocles]

There is no accountability to anyone.

You really believe they don't acknowledge their accountability to the Daimler board? This isn't something we'll necessarily see as fans. Accountable to the press and by extention us? Certainly not. I'll give you that. But that's not something that particularly concerns me. Their job is to win races and keep the board happy so they continue to exist. That's where my concern lies.

a skeleton is nothing more than a frame into which you are putting your actual design in - the frame really.

I used the term "wire frame". You then used the term "skeleton" as if it were synonymous with the concept I was referring to. I was using the term "wire frame" as a general term for the car's representation in virtual space. I'm sorry I confused you. Do I believe Willis helps oversee this stage of the car's development? Yes, of course I do. You don't? He's the tech guy... what do you think he's doing there? IT services?

So we are entitled to be supplied with a public statement of yes we have spent another 300mill € but we still have no idea about how to handle those Pirellis.

As a fan, you're entitled to an explanation? Fans aren't ENTITLED to anything.

This explains a lot of your head-scratching posts. You think you're entitled.

Regardless of where about they will be in 2013 i think just the notion of having Hamilton in the team and see what he can provide will be highly interesting in of itself.

Definitely. As much as I hate to see my beloved Schumacher go, things are only going to get more interesting.

[OppositeLock]

I've got a positive outlook for 2013. The hiring of Hamilton and more technical staff is all part of Mercedes' new commitment to the team. The peices will come together eventually. We'll all know during winter testing if they've missed the mark again.