Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

[Nando]

Next year is a further evolution.....

I take it you laugh at the "Again, predicting into the future.." thing?

Regulations will stay the same so the car will indeed be an evolution next year whether we like it or not.

[FoxHound]

Remember it took Red Bull something like 5 years to enjoy success.
In less time, Mercedes have accomplished more.

There was a point where Toro Rosso beat them in constructors. I bet you also was very vocal then?

Precisely.

It took Red Bull 5 years to win, and Mercedes 3.

The other comparison you could make is that Red Bull went backwards in year 4 they went backwards. That's 4 years WITH Adrian Newey, and their much vaunted management structure, and they finished.........7th.
People will say Red Bull didnt take over a WDC winning team. But the stark reality is, without the DDD loophole, the BGP was another mediocre car.
Before Brawn, Honda/BAR/Tyrell achieved no more than the Stewart team did. 5 podiums and a victory in 3 years is far better than what Honda managed in 3 year period, and comparable to the 6 years BAR had.

I guess detractors would want the silver paint to magically induce a culture of winning.

[dren]

Button won his first race in a Honda.

The Red Bulls wouldn't have been as good if it wasn't for the EBD, much like the Brawn and the DDD.

There are a lot of what-if scenerios going on, but we can say Mercedes won a race, has had two poles and likely should have won a third race if it wasn't for a penalty. That is a huge improvement over anything accomplished with the W01 and W02.

[marcush.]

Again, predicting into the future (especially from the outside sitting in front of a computer) is a very risky thing to do.

Remember it took Red Bull something like 5 years to enjoy success.
In less time, Mercedes have accomplished more.

There was a point where Toro Rosso beat them in constructors. I bet you also was very vocal then?

RB1 - RB2 - RB3 - RB4 no poles no success no nothing. And beaten by their sister team which was supposed to be inferior them.

W01 - W02 - W03 1 win, (2) poles, 3 fastest laps.

Please don´t forget RB4 won a race and a pole in the form of TR3 and in the hands of Vettel...and lets not forget Jaguar was a rundown the mill hopeless also ran when Mateschitz bought them.Jag never won ,as stewartgp they had 1win in Germany?
Also,RB3 was the first car designed by Newey for RedBull ,the cars before were the work of Mark Smith .My view is neither coulthard nor klien or Liuzzi were real top drivers in those years.
Au contraire Brawn GP sold as Championship winning team both drivers and Constructors actually scoring a sizeable bag of wins in 2009 USING Mercedes power .
So please let me know what exactly changed so dramtically from 2009 -2010 -apart from colour and who signed the cheques?
Even 'godfather of Company restructuring Brawn was retained to guarantee stability- only the pair of drivers was released for German power Rosberg and Heidfeld(Who was pushed out in favour of Schumacher soon).

[Nando]

We are talking about Red Bull Racing, not Toro Rosso.
The point you brought up actually in some ways validates my point even further.

What changed from 2009 to 2010? Gee that´s a hard one... i´ll let you pick out the blatantly obvious one.
And a very important one to Brawn´s success.

[spadeflush]

What changed from 2009 to 2010? Gee that´s a hard one... i´ll let you pick out the blatantly obvious one.
And a very important one to Brawn´s success.

Double diffusers were banned in 2011. MGP suffered in 2010 cuz others caught up with the concept and the big 3 had better cars to begin with.

[SeijaKessen]

What changed from 2009 to 2010? Gee that´s a hard one... i´ll let you pick out the blatantly obvious one.
And a very important one to Brawn´s success.

Double diffusers were banned in 2011. MGP suffered in 2010 cuz others caught up with the concept and the big 3 had better cars to begin with.

Bingo.

Brawn's success began to diminish once the competition started catching up.

In fact, they've been playing catch-up since the second half of the 2009 season. I'm sorry, but that's ludicrous.

Sure you can argue that MGP looked good at the beginning of the year. I even thought after Shanghai the team was only going upward. But here's what we--er I learned from the beginning of the season. Things were relatively more equal because of teams struggling with understanding the Pirelli tires. Once teams began to get a better understanding for the tires, we saw MGP start to lose ground. This is really no different from what we saw in 2009. Whenever Brawn/MGP has to come up with solutions to keep their car competitive with everyone else, they fail miserably at it. They took advantage of the equal ground in the early part of the season. But they continued struggling with understanding the tires while everyone else got it under control.

This is not a proactive team, it's a reactive team.

As such, you cannot expect anything when planning for the future. It is impossible when an organization is not proactive.

[Nando]

Double diffusers were banned in 2011. MGP suffered in 2010 cuz others caught up with the concept and the big 3 had better cars to begin with.

I was thinking more along the lines of the 18 months they spent developing the car, far longer then anyone else.
And the fact that they probably started extremely late on the 2010 design to put all focus and resources on their chance of winning titles in 09.

It wasn´t simply the DD that made it great. It was an extremely well developed car.

[marcush.]

Double diffusers were banned in 2011. MGP suffered in 2010 cuz others caught up with the concept and the big 3 had better cars to begin with.

I was thinking more along the lines of the 18 months they spent developing the car, far longer then anyone else.
And the fact that they probably started extremely late on the 2010 design to put all focus and resources on their chance of winning titles in 09.

It wasn´t simply the DD that made it great. It was an extremely well developed car.

nah..go back and read .Brawn boasted they had diverted most recources already towards the 2010 car - which was to be w01...
they had cooling issues with BGP001 ...again with w02 (!) so they pretty much had two times underestimated the same engines cooling requirements...or not evaluated properly their cooling packages take your choice which is worse...

[FoxHound]

Brawn did not boast marcush. He was asked the question.


Isn't it funny people expected brawn to produce a winning w01 when "brawn gp" in 2009 had next to no resource and a factory slashed from 800 to 450 staff, losing good people along the way. They where on a hiding to nothing from the moment Honda pulled the plug.

[Nando]

nah..go back and read .Brawn boasted they had diverted most recources already towards the 2010 car - which was to be w01...
they had cooling issues with BGP001 ...again with w02 (!) so they pretty much had two times underestimated the same engines cooling requirements...or not evaluated properly their cooling packages take your choice which is worse...

Wheelbase was the most notable fault from what i can remember.

[marcush.]

nah..go back and read .Brawn boasted they had diverted most recources already towards the 2010 car - which was to be w01...
they had cooling issues with BGP001 ...again with w02 (!) so they pretty much had two times underestimated the same engines cooling requirements...or not evaluated properly their cooling packages take your choice which is worse...

Wheelbase was the most notable fault from what i can remember.

The company size was presented not as a deficite but as a feature .We are already sized to meet the RRA.I can remember this very well.
Also I remember very well how w02 did have major cooling issues -and so neeed for the first 5 or 6 races a big number of cooling outlets -and that cost them in terms of Downforce as they had to run lower angles of attack with their wings.

[dren]

This team has historically had tire issues. They still do. It seems like more of an inability to understand why they have the tire issues than the actual underlying cause. I don't think the past cars' tire issues were all related; they all seemed different. Bad CofG, lack of downforce, exhaust exits, set-up issues, etc. Even with the lottery at the start of the season, the W03 was in the mix often enough to say that it was a legitimately good car at the start of the season. Other teams got to grips with the tires quickly and started slapping on updates. Mercedes seemed to lag behind about a 1/4 of the season. They had a quite substantial upgrade and then nothing visible until the new exhaust, which was many races after the rest of the field adapted it. Lotus seemed to lose ground over the summer break, but not as much as Mercedes.

[Pierce89]

Brawn did not boast marcush. He was asked the question.


Isn't it funny people expected brawn to produce a winning w01 when "brawn gp" in 2009 had next to no resource and a factory slashed from 800 to 450 staff, losing good people along the way. They where on a hiding to nothing from the moment Honda pulled the plug.

In: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson ... brawn.html, Benson claims Honda provided cash for Brawn to get through 2009.

[marcush.]

Very tellingly -Brawn acts very suble -it´s almost like he was not there- hm....
You don´t see much of him in the drawing office....
he let´s the guys do their thing...he´s no autocrat ....

there you go ...it´s plain obvious ..Brawn had this Double difusser and outwash front wing giving a big enough advanatge to allow them to run crudely modified ,for from optimised chassis .
No wonder they thought htey had big potential easily released with a dedicated Chassis for 2010...