Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

[SSS]

Doesnt matter they could not get develop a race winning car & it got beaten by Red Bull's B=team.

I have heard this before,preapating for Wo2 moving all resources and testing for it and W03 and so on. And I know what results it gets.

Confirms more that next year Marussia has a chance of beating Mercedes

[bhall]

So they're killing two birds with one stone at this point.

1) Develop the W04 by using the W03 as a testbed.
2) Stay ahead of Sauber by upgrading the W03 with test parts marked for next year.

Makes sense. I have to wonder how long they've set their sites on the W04.

[...]

This is not unique to Mercedes. For most teams, work on next year's car started in about May or June. In fact, given the lead time necessary to build a chassis for the winter tests, some teams have probably already signed off on their designs, and production is well underway.

Don't let Brawn's words for next year lull you into a false sense of security. There's nothing innovative going on in Brackley.

[spadeflush]

Exactly. Even Force India stated no so long ago that they shifted their focus to next year's car. We seldom hear the top teams making such an announcement. Its a given that after midseason, simultaneous development begins maybe in terms of aero for the current car and chassis of the next year's car.

On a side note, is it me or does anything that Brawn say these days sounds like an excuse?

[FoxHound]

Marcush,

List the teams that are using next years ddrs, set ups and parts.

[mep]

Man guys don’t be so naive and buy Mercedes PR.
ALL!! teams are already working on next year’s car.
Also do most teams already test parts on the car for next year.
Further, do more teams have DDRS than you would imagine. They just don’t make a big story out of it to tell the world how innovative they are. Did you never wonder why Mercedes is not dominating top speeds with their high prised double and triple DRS?

[mx_tifoso]

I usually don't chime in in here, but I have to agree with Mep and the rest of you guys in that Mercedes are definitely not the only ones far into 2013 R&D. Thus Mercedes are on not ahead of the curve, but actually on it if not a little behind.

[FoxHound]

I usually don't chime in in here, but I have to agree with Mep and the rest of you guys in that Mercedes are definitely not the only ones far into 2013 R&D. Thus Mercedes are on not ahead of the curve, but actually on it if not a little behind.

When you read what AMuS is saying regards the complexities of the W03. It uses a 4way hydraulically interconnect suspension, which is the base design of the W03. They went to the absolute maximum of the fixed weight distribution with a carbon cased gearbox earlier in the year, and found that the problems where still there.
The explanation given is the car was developed in a 50% windtunnel, which was not condusive to showing issues with the 2012 Pirelli tyre. I think Bigois paid the price for that.....

The car can lap 1 lap within a few tenths of outright pace with McLaren, but because it would fall of the Pirelli tyre cliff after a few laps, the car has to be tuned to understeer to protect the rear tyres. They have even tried 3 different rear axle geometries to no avail with this car. So what can they do?

We will see Coanda exhausts next year, and we will see a certain type DDRS too. Mercedes have also tried a newer rear wing, and will be throwing a few more bits and bobs on this car that can help them further their understanding of what is needed to push forward in 2013.
I'm 50/50 on whether they can, but when you look at the pause they had with developments on the car for abound 4 months...and then suddenly a raft of changes like the coanda exhaust, altered diffuser, newer front wing pylons(Ellis IMO) and the other "testing bits" it does seem like they are focusing more on tommorow, than today.
But I agree thsat we have seen them do that 2 years running to no avail.

[FoxHound]

Did you never wonder why Mercedes is not dominating top speeds with their high prised double and triple DRS?

Extra downforce to make up for the lack of it. Higher AoA means more drag penalties on the straights.
It's a key problem for Mercedes and very much why Willis(windtunnel experience) and Ellis where recruited, and tellingly, why Bigois was ushered to the side and the windtunnel upgraded to 60% model capable.

[marcush.]

first quesrtion:
The Honda tunnel was put in use already in 2007 -so it was a commodity when Brawn joined the boat. They never made the switch from 50% to 60% under his direction...but only realise in 2012 it does not work without 60%?
like it or not ..2010,11 and 12 was thrown away due to their reluctance or ignorance..2009 was the year they should have done it at latest when they were no longer allowed to use the second tunnel anyways and the 60% rule was written down.
this all was decided for whatever reason under #Brawns directions .so nobody can say he´s not responsible
In fact one would expect that it was always the plan to go to a bigger scale -there was a reason to invest into this expensive kit -only to run it in 50% as they had done since starting up BAR...so every year the switch was delayed for some reason and Brawn signed it off.Mercedes bought the company -they knew about the capability of the tunnel but did not insist on making an instant switch...
also very fishy especially considering the tunnel itself would not need major upgrades to run the bigger sized model.

[mantikos]

Did you never wonder why Mercedes is not dominating top speeds with their high prised double and triple DRS?

Extra downforce to make up for the lack of it. Higher AoA means more drag penalties on the straights.
It's a key problem for Mercedes and very much why Willis(windtunnel experience) and Ellis where recruited, and tellingly, why Bigois was ushered to the side and the windtunnel upgraded to 60% model capable.

The wind tunnel has always been 100% model capable - they just upgraded the model to 60%
Other than you are correct

[Nando]

Did you never wonder why Mercedes is not dominating top speeds with their high prised double and triple DRS?

Gearing is the main thing that decides top speed.
If you can shed more drag then anyone else you simply accelerate faster up to your top speed.
If you can shed drag at the front you can use DRS earlier in corners, China´s long right hander is a perfect example for the Merc´s D-DRS system.

[mep]

Did you never wonder why Mercedes is not dominating top speeds with their high prised double and triple DRS?

Extra downforce to make up for the lack of it. Higher AoA means more drag penalties on the straights.
It's a key problem for Mercedes and very much why Willis(windtunnel experience) and Ellis where recruited, and tellingly, why Bigois was ushered to the side and the windtunnel upgraded to 60% model capable.

No, it is because many other teams also run some forms of double DRS. They just keep that secret.
Also they run the more simple form of stalling the beam wing. The AMuS article mentions that Mercedes wants to keep the balance in the car which sounds strange because usually when you use DRS you are not interested in balance very much. However I would say this hints that Mercedes has a general lack of rear downforce and hence rather wants to stall the front wing.

[Ozan]

Did you never wonder why Mercedes is not dominating top speeds with their high prised double and triple DRS?

Extra downforce to make up for the lack of it. Higher AoA means more drag penalties on the straights.
It's a key problem for Mercedes and very much why Willis(windtunnel experience) and Ellis where recruited, and tellingly, why Bigois was ushered to the side and the windtunnel upgraded to 60% model capable.

Gear ratios and downforce levels play big role on top speeds. also the new coanda exhaust consume some of the HP the engine produces. that's why merc may be no longer highest on top speed.

[FoxHound]

No, it is because many other teams also run some forms of double DRS. They just keep that secret.
Also they run the more simple form of stalling the beam wing.

Fair enough if you think that. But what would happen if for example you run the CFD, and the 50% windtunnel models and they are giving numbers you just arent seeing out on the race track?
The DDRS could be working perfectly, but if you are subtracting frontal downforce, and trying to shift downforce rearwards, you are going against what the initial concept was all about in the first place.
This is a major reason why Mercedes have appeared to go backwards.

They could run the initial concept of the W03 with it's front pylons etc during the first 5-6 races of the season as other teams where suffering from similar tyre problems.
But the moment others began to solve the issues, Mercedes had to make the sacrifice.... even having to dial excessive understeer into the car to help the situation. Or they could be quick in quali and finish 15th in the race.

@Ozan these are big factors too, but I'm talking the issues specific to Mercedes, as other teams run Coanda exhausts and will also need to choose their own gear ratios.

[SSS]

No, it is because many other teams also run some forms of double DRS. They just keep that secret.
Also they run the more simple form of stalling the beam wing.

Fair enough if you think that. But what would happen if for example you run the CFD, and the 50% windtunnel models and they are giving numbers you just arent seeing out on the race track?
The DDRS could be working perfectly, but if you are subtracting frontal downforce, and trying to shift downforce rearwards, you are going against what the initial concept was all about in the first place.
This is a major reason why Mercedes have appeared to go backwards.

They could run the initial concept of the W03 with it's front pylons etc during the first 5-6 races of the season as other teams where suffering from similar tyre problems.
But the moment others began to solve the issues, Mercedes had to make the sacrifice.... even having to dial excessive understeer into the car to help the situation. Or they could be quick in quali and finish 15th in the race.

@Ozan these are big factors too, but I'm talking the issues specific to Mercedes, as other teams run Coanda exhausts and will also need to choose their own gear ratios.

To fail in upgrades you have to them. You are making more of a case of withdrawal of Mercedes from Formula1.

Ferrari have a dysfunctional Windtunnel which cant even relate data with track results and they have shut it down and are renting a probably Toyota one. Yet they are in the top.

Lotus while building this car was upgrading its windtunnel to 60%. Yet it produced a super car & good upgrades.

You are sounding more like Brawn. Excuses after Excuses. First EBD being illegal, then Fixed Weight Distribution, then Slick Tyres, Then Manpower being reduced, Then Simulator being build, Now this pathetic Windtunnel one.

What will be next year??? The promises of new engines being a game-changer for 2014 or Some blame on tyres or Niki Lauda taking time to integrate????

Every has problems. But they manage it. Their is no excuse getting beaten by a Toro Rosso who dont even have a WindTunnel probably or doing a worse job compared to budget & manpower than freaking Marussia.

Its just diplomatic lies which big corporate houses often feed & I hate those BS. Ross Brawn,Just Man up & admit you screwed up for 3 straight years. Take responsibility & QUIT or produce a Championship Contender next year