Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

[marcush.]

You may just look as far as the current issue of Racetech ´(october 2012) :"it´s got no traction"by Peter Elleray :he is elaborating about Arrows GP difficulties with their A9 designs ..and one feels very much reminded of MGPs issues in the last 3 years...A very BASIC but enlightening attempt to discribe the difficulties a team may encounter .
A very very telling picture is published in this as well showing Ross Brawn as TD in the midst of this shambles...

they really had it all -aero issues with delaminations starting as far forward as the pushrod covers contributing to a lack of airflow through radiators and a bad flow to the rear wing ,Stiffness problems with the tub and Installation problems from suspension to engine mounts ,a wrong static weight distribution and absurd numbers (100+%) of antisquat designed into their transmission moun ting points.

So with all due respect for Ross ` achievements in Formula 1 history I find it difficult to believe someone of calibre or understanding would allow his team to venture into such a disaster and still be surprised at all.

He comes across as someone who has had it all in experience.He did actually fall into each and every concieveable hole or trap by the looks of things ...surprise surprise ..he came from Williams GP where Patrick Head had all the hardpoints tightly
managed by himself only! So i imagine Ross had his years at Williams with good success but the guy in the background was Head -at Force -it was Barnard ,at Arrows it was himself and after this he had either Barnard or -Byrne making the decisions and defining the cars base.
I had a good laugh reading this - to me well worth the 14.60€ I had to fork out todays ...

I ´m pretty sure they have people who are nothing less than brilliant in their field of expertise -no question .But I have serious doubts about those who make the decisions as they seem at a complete loss to understand what´s really needed.

just go back to the car thread of 2010s contender the W01 and look up what guys like Jumbo 747 ,EXp and others came up in terms of analysing their lack of performance came up with and I claim this car thread very much is the analysis and breakdown of all this cars shortcomings .I´m not sure at all if MGP has had the time (!) to analyse all the points put on the agenda by jumbo .....so much for their understanding of the reasons for their lack of performance.
Formula 1 is science -technology - no magic involved .Not even Newey can knock out Newton.
If it does not work -you simply don´t understand .reasons for this could be ignorance ,stupidity ,negligeance, error,lack of education lack of recources.
Never ever it can be :lack of luck or a lack of time to try all other wrong routes!

[mep]

The DDRS could be working perfectly, but if you are subtracting frontal downforce, and trying to shift downforce rearwards, you are going against what the initial concept was all about in the first place.
This is a major reason why Mercedes have appeared to go backwards.

Please do some straight talking and not just throw in some words expecting others to do the interpretation of what you try to say.

Fair enough if you think that. But what would happen if for example you run the CFD, and the 50% windtunnel models and they are giving numbers you just arent seeing out on the race track?

Then your simulations are of bad quality, which basically means you did something wrong. That is really all what it is. As we say “sh!t in sh!t out.”
When they blame Pirely for the bad correlation of their 50% tires then why did Mercedes not use a 60% model which will give better results anyway?

[marcush.]

I fail to understand this team.Haug is now questioning the expertise at the track ....
Jesus christ ....it looks like shooting from the hip by an amateur....they are really just a bunch of enthusiasts with no real plan and strategy how to solve their issues..
they sure have some good people .those design and build a solid car .It´s not a RedBull ,it´s not a Mclaren but a proper Formula1 car ...like FI ,TR,Sauber or Lotus .
To make the difference those at the front need to be a lot sharper than what is available at MGP.
RedBull and Ferrari and Mclaren show much better understanding of the system and this translates into just how quick they can find back to the front after losing the plot or taking the wrong turn.
Give any of those three a Marussia,Caterham,HRT and in short time these will climb up the grid .Would MGP be able to develop a HRT ?

[Cocles]

Marcush, in one breath you lament that we receive nothing but BS from Mercedes through the press. Then in the next breath you analyze what they're saying as if it's of value.

Which is it?

Personally I agree with you that it's all BS. They don't owe the press anything, they'd rather stay silent due to their troubles, but they're nonetheless required to say *something* so they toss out a new morsel every week. They're NOT going to tell us what's wrong. They're also not going to list the same problem every week.

I get the sense that when they get *really specific* they're telling the truth, such as when Brawn mentioned the three different suspension setups, but other than that.... they're just soundbites so the journalists feel they've done their job and go away.

[FoxHound]

Marcush ask red bull in years 3 and 4 whether they could have developed an HRT etc

Seems this team is not allowed to make mistakes either. And they are making mistakes.
Aero is for me is the biggest area where they are falling down.
They are acting upon this, and should have done so sooner. But we will see where it leads.

To go and call them enthusiasts....I disagree with that on a basic level.

[mep]

I wonder if marcush account got hacked?
I also questions Mercedes experience on track and thought you would do the same. I mean they failed to calculate the time left until the end of qualy twice and saved soft tires in Hockenheim when the sky was full of rain clouds.

[Mika1]

Praying that Aldo Costa will produce something good.

[marcush.]

I wonder if marcush account got hacked?
I also questions Mercedes experience on track and thought you would do the same. I mean they failed to calculate the time left until the end of qualy twice and saved soft tires in Hockenheim when the sky was full of rain clouds.

these are the typical enthisasts wrong doings I was writing about .They completely blend out or fail to realise what is happening around them but are fully occupied with the horse they are trying to catch ...hours ,days ,months later they realise it was not even their own horse.....
Thgeir uninspired acting at the track is something I fail to follow (always same strategy for both cars, always acting as if they had to be conservative (favorites) or following impossible agendas (trying to save pitstops with a car that is notorious for its appetite for tyres, shortfueling etc) they have no imagination ..only lately we could see Schumacher doing VERY different things in Qualy -very slow first timed first laps then a flyer ..
Their race simulations seem ver crude and not taking into account necessary aspects:
When they still try to extract the last bit of performance of a set of tyres and others already run much quicker on fresh rubber ....then you can see they miss a few bits around them .

[FoxHound]

these are the typical enthisasts wrong doings I was writing about .They completely blend out or fail to realise what is happening around them but are fully occupied with the horse they are trying to catch ...hours ,days ,months later they realise it was not even their own horse.....

Right can you give us some information as to why you think they are enthusiasts? Other than the information already supplied by AMuS, Scarbs, Somers and Autosport, which all point to the difficulty in setting up the DDRS, and the their issues with switching aero from front to back to help wth tyre wear.

At every venue, these guys start on the back foot because of this problem. They cannot run optimum set up, and have to find an understeer base to protect the rear tyres. No amount of Coanda exhaust is going to solve that issue. They need to isolate the problem and not make it again on the W04.
This is not an "Enthusiasts" wrong doings, this is a remedy to a problem. It papers over the cracks, but when the issue is so evident on the W01/W02/W03 then what would you have Brawn/Mercedes do? Keep Bigois and maintain a 50% windtunnel?

Bigois had 2 bites of the Mercedes apple in the W02 and W03. He proved he cannot design a car that works with it's tyres.
Honest question Marcush, what else can Mercedes try that they havent?

[marcush.]

Look ,I certainly don´t know what MGP have tried or have not tried .
But curing a rear tyre wear -read overheating problem by making the front worse is really not a good idea.you may even be able to make the rears last longer but at the expense of massive lap time loss ,as you simply throw away potential.
The correct way to cure a problem is to adress the problem itself which is ? excessive heat build up on the rear tyres ? so you have to look into that problem.As they have decided to wack off front aero - I´d suppose they THINK they have not enough rear downforce ,leading to slip leading to excessive heat generation.
so in simple words crank up the rear wing and produce downforce.
You may be dead last through the speed traps but at least you got balance ,you lower the temps at the rear and your tyre will last ....then you develop the car for drag reduction maintaining the correct downforce levels.(you may or may not drop down the order in Qualy with that approach -and you may have difficulty to overtake in the race-but at least your tyres will
last at least as long as all the competitors)
It´s not as simple as that ..or maybe it is?

Certainly they do not handle their setup choices very carfully otherwise they certainly had developped by now a strategy to
nurse or strain the tyres in a ways the fronts and rears gain temperature in a complimentary ways. You cannot always expect these things are just setup ,but still i have to ask why it worked in China and Monaco .So where is that setup window gone ? I don´t think china and Monaco have very much in common in terms of track surface ,ambient and surface temps ,corner speeds and what have you but still they somehow found a workable area combined with speed .No ?

[FoxHound]

Marcush

They where top of the speed traps for the first few gp, if not top, then certainly top 2/3.
They are now 7th or 8th at best.

They have already added a mother load of aero, but it's suffering in terms of drag. The issue is still there.
The problem seems to have been at an early stage in design. Bell and Costa can certainly work out an issue like this had it been their baby. Do you not think?

The problems at Mercedes and previously Honda have persistently been aero and tyre based.
Aero has been beefed up, and Costa made the Ferrari f150 which was too easy on its tyres. So maybe this can help?

[SSS]

these are the typical enthisasts wrong doings I was writing about .They completely blend out or fail to realise what is happening around them but are fully occupied with the horse they are trying to catch ...hours ,days ,months later they realise it was not even their own horse.....

Right can you give us some information as to why you think they are enthusiasts? Other than the information already supplied by AMuS, Scarbs, Somers and Autosport, which all point to the difficulty in setting up the DDRS, and the their issues with switching aero from front to back to help wth tyre wear.

At every venue, these guys start on the back foot because of this problem. They cannot run optimum set up, and have to find an understeer base to protect the rear tyres. No amount of Coanda exhaust is going to solve that issue. They need to isolate the problem and not make it again on the W04.
This is not an "Enthusiasts" wrong doings, this is a remedy to a problem. It papers over the cracks, but when the issue is so evident on the W01/W02/W03 then what would you have Brawn/Mercedes do? Keep Bigois and maintain a 50% windtunnel?

Bigois had 2 bites of the Mercedes apple in the W02 and W03. He proved he cannot design a car that works with it's tyres.
Honest question Marcush, what else can Mercedes try that they havent?

NO its all BS fed by Brawn. Most of those articles mention sources from "MERCEDES", they have comments from Brawn & so on all. ALL Corporate BS to hide their flaws.

Is it more difficult then Ferrari or Red Bull to set up a DRS which took them a full season. Heck Mclaren burn theri tyres due to Coanda but they never b***h about it.


Ferrari had a rubbish car, a Suspension System which itself was question, A DUD Exhaust, they tried like 4-5 Exhausts.

And in the end Mercedes feed a Bullsh*t that we have DRS, it adds 3 pounds extra, it gives too much over-steer & what not.

Well then who took this decision to take DRS & FIRE THAT GUY. Fire the TP Brawn who has authorized 10-12 Consistent Wrong Car Decisions.

[SSS]

Marcush

They where top of the speed traps for the first few gp, if not top, then certainly top 2/3.
They are now 7th or 8th at best.

They have already added a mother load of aero, but it's suffering in terms of drag. The issue is still there.
The problem seems to have been at an early stage in design. Bell and Costa can certainly work out an issue like this had it been their baby. Do you not think?

The problems at Mercedes and previously Honda have persistently been aero and tyre based.
Aero has been beefed up, and Costa made the Ferrari f150 which was too easy on its tyres. So maybe this can help?

Costa did not make F150, he was TD, but he had 900 people & a lot of people assisting him. So its only lets add Costa, the car will be kind on its tyres. Thats just a Dud idea.

Bell has been working on 2 Cars now. Bell is here for 2 years now. When he joined W02 was out but he got 1 full seaosn for upgrades, study & he did jacksh** with the car & did jacksh*t with W03.


As for the Speed Traps. 2 Factors ->

1 - NO Coanda which consumes HP which is why Lotus were top of speed charts too.
2 - DRS without which they were just about same as almost everyone in Race
3 - Mercedes engine having 20-30 HP more than Renault.

Other than that Mercedes Deserve 0 Credit for Topping Speed Trap

[marcush.]

top speeds are not really something of importance they prove nothing .Just crunch the numbers and you will find out that going faster needs less drag not more HP .for the same drag number an increase of HP in the region of 20,30 HP does not really make any difference in speed .
So if you are slow through the traps it s simply a function of drag and gearing.
But to come back to MGPs kings: I don´t understand why Bell and Willis and Costa should not be held accountable for this years car.
Bell was present in its gestation from day one adding to that he experienced the woes W02 had al year .Willis was in the company already to look up the development over the winter as was Costa..So a realistic input from these two would have materialised at the beginning of the euro season.....-the decline of W03s performance...

[snoop1050]

but if you have poop downforce you could atleast have a low drag car with alot of top speed.

remember force india a few seasons ago?

merc have nothing , no downforce , no high top speed.