Driver-adjusted differential locking

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
autogyro
autogyro
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Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: Driver-adjusted differential locking

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strad wrote:Picture a posi rear end with it's clutch pack, but with the ability to hydraulically apply those clutches when you want instead of when a wheel slips. Ever drive something with a nice new tight clutch pack, oh say on the freeway for a distance and when you get off and make a turn at the end of the off ramp you skip a bit around the corner because the clutches have swollen with heat and locked up like a spool? Think of being able to do that to varying degrees by applying pressure..Now you can have pressure on the inside wheel and MAKE the car want to turn in. :wink:
All this does is to convert a loose open diff into a spool diff by varying degrees.
Increasing diff locking will increase under steer.
It will do so with increasing tyre wear and it does not give torque vectoring from the torque source.
Fully locked the this diff will give a 50 50 torque split.
Fully open it will give a 50 50 torque split less any output torque differences caused by planetary design, less any loss of torque due to any wheelspin on one or both sides. It is the wheel rpm which slowly becomes the same for both sides as the locking increases to fully locked, that causes the under steer, it has nothing to do with torque vectoring.
The traction of the turned front tyres ends up trying to turn the car by ripping off the tread of the rear inside tyre.
The more the clutch pack applies and begins to lock the axle as a spool, the more the car will under steer.
The locking will help balance energy harvesting through the KERS system and traction loss/wheel spin will be reduced across the axle but at the expense of difficult to control tyre wear and mechanical set up problems.
Trying to compensate with suspension settings biased to stiff front soft rear to reduce under steer and rear tyre wear, will result in unpredictable turn in, front inside wheel lifting and front inside wheel lock ups under braking.
Somebody should change their gearbox designer :wink:
The only reason why this heath robinson result occurs is because aero demands always outweigh mechanical or powertrain.
and aero forces mask out most of these kinds of effect.

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strad
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Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Driver-adjusted differential locking

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What if what really happens is that it creates drag on the chosen wheel..Much like applying a braking force??
McLaren third pedal style. Just a thought
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

autogyro
autogyro
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Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: Driver-adjusted differential locking

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strad wrote:What if what really happens is that it creates drag on the chosen wheel..Much like applying a braking force??
McLaren third pedal style. Just a thought
I presume you read my previous post strad.

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Tim.Wright
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Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 06:29

Re: Driver-adjusted differential locking

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Ok, if you brake one of the output shafts on a chassis fixed surface then yes you will be able to reproduce the brake steering system of McLaren. The main disadvantage of such a system is you waste a lot of power because the speed difference between the shafts are the braking point are relatively high.

If instead you are braking one of the output shafts against the diff carrier (like in a normal LSD), your power losses are a lot less because the diff carrier and output shafts are normally running at a very similar speed. The disadvantage is that the torque flow is always from the faster moving element to the slower moving element regardless of the clutching action.

Tim
Not the engineer at Force India

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Tim.Wright
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Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 06:29

Re: Driver-adjusted differential locking

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I'm pretty determined to get to the bottom of this. I was thinking perhaps they are using a torsen T-2 style differential which has a planetery looking gear arrangement as shown on the Torsen website.

Image

However, after looking at some pictures of the Ferrari F2000 diff, I see the gears are straight cut gears not helical. So now I'm not so sure.

Image

It does look as though the planet gears are in pairs, with one of them meshed to the ring gear, the other meshed to the sun gear. I can see the clutch pack too, but the connections from the sun gear and the output shafts is not so obvious.

Maybe if I stare at it a few more hours I will figure it out.

Tim
Not the engineer at Force India

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strad
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Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Driver-adjusted differential locking

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Not even trying to argue at all, but I need some explaination of what I'm looking at in these various photos.
Some of the terms confuse me,
http://www.italiaspeed.com/2007/cars/fe ... /1907.html
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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strad
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Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Driver-adjusted differential locking

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Image
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

gato azul
gato azul
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Joined: 02 Feb 2012, 14:39

Re: Driver-adjusted differential locking

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I don't know what they do, or don't do and not wanna go into a --- fight about it, just from a technical PoV.

a.) it is possible, that they just use a Spur Gear Diff with two clutch packs as a LSD, where the locking of the
clutch packs is electronic/hydraulic controlled.

a spur gear diff, just builds more compact and is probably lighter and has less losses. Is used in some OEM consumer cars now.

Image

http://www.odts.de/southptr/gears/gears.htm

Image

http://en.lily-bearing.com/Bearing_news/11070402.htm

Parallel-axis differential

b.) use a solution similar to the AYC Diff (Active Yaw Control) found in Mitsubishi Evo's

Image

Image
Image

http://www.lancerevoclub.com/evoclub-ayc-e.htm

c.) other options
Parallel-axis gear differential with pinion mounted brake shoes
Last edited by gato azul on 02 Nov 2012, 01:39, edited 1 time in total.

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strad
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Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Driver-adjusted differential locking

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The one looks like a Renault diff.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

gato azul
gato azul
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Joined: 02 Feb 2012, 14:39

Re: Driver-adjusted differential locking

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psg
psg
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Joined: 10 May 2014, 03:24

Re: Driver-adjusted differential locking

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So why not run Spin resistant diffs, rather than limited slip??
Fundamental design difference.