engine blow up

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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pRo
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Tomba wrote:Well Dave, I honoustly can't see how reduction of fuel input into a cylinder can actually increase the load on a piston or connection rod. It looks to me that it's even the opposite as less ignited fuel is less expansion pressure just after the ignition.
IF they only reduce fuel and don't cut it off completely, then reduction of fuel causes leaner mixture, which burns with higher temp than the "normal" and creates more heat load into the system.

If they leave the fuel out for one cylinder at a time, then I can't see why it would create any extra load either. The first method would allow better finetune than the second, so it would kinda make sense to use it.
Formula 1, 57, died Thursday, Sept. 13, 2007
Born May 13, 1950, in Silverstone, United Kingdom
Will be held in the hearts of millions forever
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mep
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I have heard several times that the fuel is important for cooling
(valves or what ever), so reducing the fuel would
cause a higher temperature loading.
To stop ignition would have a higher fuel demand
but it would explain the strange sound of the Ferrari system.

Is is imaginable to control the traction by a electric clutch
and by ignition or fuel consumption?
Is it enough to rob the engine a few cylinders per turn
or should it be smooted by the clutch?

manchild
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pRo wrote:IF they only reduce fuel and don't cut it off completely, then reduction of fuel causes leaner mixture, which burns with higher temp than the "normal" and creates more heat load into the system.
(mep too)

You're forgetting that that throttle is fly-by-wire and controled by ECU (not directly controlled by driver) and it can't be opened more or less than ECU has set for specific mixture - (fuel/air ratio). When TC needs reduction of amount of fuel injected ECU also reduces the aperture of throttle so mixture doesn't become leaner at all.

That's how pit limiter works too. If it wasn't so than engine would be also overheated everytime driver presses the "padal to the metal" during pitlane drive because throttle would be fully opened and injection would inject tiny amount of fuel to keep car on certain speed.

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zenvision
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another question, could a driver "destroy" the engine or over-run the car as lets say kimi's pattern with car retirement is a bit...well strange. I know mercedes are to fault, but could a driver like in the past destroy an engine or just over-drive it.
"Aerodynamics are for people who can't build good engines" Enzo Ferrari

manchild
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zenvision wrote:another question, could a driver "destroy" the engine or over-run the car as lets say kimi's pattern with car retirement is a bit...well strange. I know mercedes are to fault, but could a driver like in the past destroy an engine or just over-drive it.
Yes, driver can kill rev limiter and blow it at any time.

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zenvision
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strange as I thought the engine makers would have a igher maximum safe limit for themselves and then another safer limiter but I still think that they won't let the driver to blow it.
"Aerodynamics are for people who can't build good engines" Enzo Ferrari

DaveKillens
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The driver's technique is important. How they attack curbs, how smooth they run, if they throw the car around brutally or try to be smooth and gentle. Kimi has one style, drive it balls-to-the wall, and I don't have a problem with that. It's entertaining and shows he's trying very hard.

G-Rock
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Boys, boys, cutting power to one or more cylinders (for traction control) can cause a torsional vibration in the crankshaft. It's usually the crank that breaks, or just one throw which would totally destroy one bank of cylinders which is what we saw with MS.

Traction control uses fuel, ignition, throttle control but you're forgetting one important piece of the puzzle. Pneumatic valves. During a TC episode, they allow the valves to 'float" to vent off the compression from the compression stroke to reduce fuel consumption. If the engine isn't using a piston or two for a few strokes, may as well decommission everything to do with it until traction is found and power resumes.
By the way, i love traction control. It's made seeing a F1 car roar and sputter by utterly fantastic. I wish my car would make sounds like that while exiting my favourite corners.
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joseff
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G-Rock wrote:...Pneumatic valves. During a TC episode, they allow the valves to 'float" to vent off the compression from the compression stroke to reduce fuel consumption.
I've always thought F1 engines have Interference design (term?) where the valves and piston occupy the same space and therefore valves have to close completely when the piston approaches TDC.

Mikey_s
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I have no specific knowledge which would enable a meaningful post on this thread, but on the basis that this is a technical forum my sense is that there is a great deal of speculation which is not based upon factual knowledge... so, that being said, this is plea to ask that people please try and stick to facts.

A general comment; it is curious that Schum's engine blew, but Ferrari has an incredible record of reliability (apparently 111 races without a blow!!) and therefore I guess that this was more than likely a QC problem rather than a specific design flaw; I seriously doubt that it was down to the TC system; they have been using TC for long enough that they should know the impact on the engine. I recognise that with engine homologation all manufacturers are pushing the limits, but Todt stated that this failure was a complete surprise.

Unacceptable wear rates are checked via analysis of the lubricating oil between every run of an engine and it is inconceivable that Ferrari/Shell were aware of an impending component failure and still decided to risk a failure at such a critical point of the season. Furthermore, the engines are fitted with so many sensors and failure analysis information is pretty well standard practice that the whole issue points to a more or less random failure.

now, some specific issues;
During a TC episode, they allow the valves to 'float" to vent off the compression from the compression stroke to reduce fuel consumption
According to the set of rules I read VVT technology is banned!
... causes leaner mixture, which burns with higher temp than the "normal" and creates more heat load into the system.
According to my book lean burn engines run at cooler temperatures than stochiometric mixtures. Furthermore, on the basis that it is the burning of the fuel (and the compression) which generates the heat, putting less fuel in is intuitively more likely to reduce the charge temperature than putting more in!

If I were asked to speculate (which I have not been!) I think the logical means to reduce power output selectively is to cut fuel; this is relatively simple to do, saves fuel for later in the race and makes far more sense than cutting the spark, but leaving the fuel in - furthermore, observations suggest that there is not excess fuel in the tailpipe during a TC episode as this would lead to great big flames coming out from autoignition. It would also waste fuel. On the basis that VVT is not permitted, the options are rather narrowed.

Enough... I have work to do!
Mike

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pRo
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Mikey_s wrote:
... causes leaner mixture, which burns with higher temp than the "normal" and creates more heat load into the system.
According to my book lean burn engines run at cooler temperatures than stochiometric mixtures. Furthermore, on the basis that it is the burning of the fuel (and the compression) which generates the heat, putting less fuel in is intuitively more likely to reduce the charge temperature than putting more in!
You have to think outside stoichiometric mixture, because that's not what they normally run. That's what road cars run on light load and even they have richer mixture under load.

I understand it seems against all odds that more fuel would lower the temps, but it does. The reason is that there's only so much oxygen in the cylinder and fuel doesn't burn without oxygen. So the extra fuel in the cylinder doesn't burn and doesn't generate heat, but instead it vaporizes and absorbs some of the heat. So yes, definitely, going from rich mixture (=good for power) towards stoichiometric (=less power) does cause more heat.

You can Google for more precise info, here's the first hit:
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/rich.php
(I know it talks about turbo, but the idea is the same)
Formula 1, 57, died Thursday, Sept. 13, 2007
Born May 13, 1950, in Silverstone, United Kingdom
Will be held in the hearts of millions forever
Rest In Peace, we will not forget you

Mikey_s
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pRo,

the thread is creeping, but to respond to a couple of points in your post;

I was not discussing rich mixtures, or even stociometric ones, but lean burn. There is no shortage of oxygen in a lean burn engine, in fact there is an excess. If you go to Wikipedia and type lean burn you will see that such a combustion regime does burn at lower temperature than a stochiometric one.

There is also some inaccurate information in the article you referenced; Combustion of CO to CO2 does not require water... thermodynamically that just wouldn't work! (but it does require oxygen!)
Mike

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pRo
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Mikey_s wrote:I was not discussing rich mixtures, or even stociometric ones, but lean burn.
Ah, ok. I missed your point then.
(you're right, going lean enough does also lower the temps)

There is also some inaccurate information in the article you referenced; Combustion of CO to CO2 does not require water... thermodynamically that just wouldn't work! (but it does require oxygen!)
Didn't they say just that? 8) Of course you need oxygen to turn CO into CO2, but are you sure the oxygen is pure oxygen when that happens?

"First the gasoline molecules are broken up into hydrogen and carbon. The hydrogen combines with oxygen from the air to form H2O (water) and the carbon molecules form CO. This process happens very fast at the front edge of the flame front. The second stage converts CO to CO2. This process is relatively slow and requires water molecules (from the first stage) for completion."

1) Gas -> hydrogen + carbon.
2a) Hydrogen + oxygen -> water.
2b) Carbon + oxygen -> CO.
3) CO + water -> CO2.

I'm not THAT familiar with combustion details. I can't say whether that's true or not. :? I do know that oxygen + gas doesn't turn directly into anything, but through stages. Maybe someone with more knowledge can say how does that go?
(sorry, I don't trust Wikipedia, too much disinformation there)


...quite a thread drift, maybe mods should split this into a new topic, sorry :oops:
Formula 1, 57, died Thursday, Sept. 13, 2007
Born May 13, 1950, in Silverstone, United Kingdom
Will be held in the hearts of millions forever
Rest In Peace, we will not forget you

Mikey_s
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pRo,

chemistry is something that I do understand...

The salient reactions in the combustion of a hydrocarbon are hydrogen goes to water and carbon oxidises. The degreee of conversion to Carbon monoxide, or dioxide is simply to do with how much oxygen is available. If there is insufficient oxygen there will be CO formed and in a lean burn engine I would expect very low CO values, with most of the Carbon reacting to CO2. I don't have time to look up the reaction kinetics of Carbon with oxygen, but I don't see it as necessarily being a two stage process; I can see no rationale fore there being any rate limiting step which would favour mono-oxidation over the dioxide formation - as far as I can see it is solely a function of stochiometry - i.e complete combustion, or partial combustion.

A(nother) digression is that in lean burn (high compression) engines NOx (nitrogen Oxides) are formed in larger quantities due to the availability of surplus oxygen.

we really should get back on thread, or start a new one!! :)
Mike

manchild
manchild
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It was a valve that caused blow on Schuey's car

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/55104