Difference between scales on wind tunnel

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
aussiegman
aussiegman
105
Joined: 07 Feb 2012, 07:16
Location: Sydney, Hong Kong & BVI

Re: Differnce between scales on wind tunnel

Post

riff_raff wrote:aussiegman- I'm a mechanical guy and I know next to nothing about aero, but I did spend some time working for a company that built wind tunnel models for the aerospace industry. Many of the models we built were of very reduced scale since they had to fit into the small area test section of "blow-down" transonic/supersonic tunnels. The smaller the model scale, the tighter the profile tolerances became that we were asked to hold.
Makes perfect sense. You'd want them to be as close to full size proportions to properly mimic the total aero effect.
riff_raff wrote:Regarding Reynolds number and scaling effects, I recall that one or two of the more sophisticated tunnels had the ability of using a different mixture of gases (instead of compressed air) that gave more accurate test result, but I don't recall what these gas mixtures were composed of.
I've not heard of the aerospace tunnels ability to effectively "scale" apparent gas viscosity, but to a certain scale this sounds plausible.

If you were using a small scale model in the small wind tunnels (basically rectangular perspex boxes) and the associated gas volume was low enough so you could effectively use a decent gas recirculation system then this sounds like a good solution.

I have seen very small relative scale aero models used in sealed chambers for measurements of shockwave propagation with Schlieren photography. No idea if the gas mixed or a hybrid to "scale" but there you go. Helium to nitrogen might work if it mixes properly and you get the ratio right.

However down to a certain scale, I think you would probably still run into scalability effects as the gas would eventually get to "sticky" and just not scale down any further (molecules are fixed in size after all), but i have no idea what that level may be for a given gas or gas combination or whether that threshold is so low that it wouldn't be an issue .
Never approach a Bull from the front, a Horse from the back, or an Idiot from any direction

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
650
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Differnce between scales on wind tunnel

Post

the established way of increasing aerodynamic (Re) scale is to use pressurised air (other gases etc are pointless for subsonic work)
(but pressurisation would never have been done if 50% or 60% scales were practicable unpressurised)
aviation uses lower scales even with big pressurised tunnels

50 or 60% scale should be fine for F1, and so was the basis of policy
tunnel flow quality (turbulence etc) is always an issue, "a 60% tunnel with good flow quality will be better than a mediocre 100% tunnel"
flow quality (unlike scale) is near-impossible to specify and test, it economically competes with scale, and scale wins

comparative tests are the way to assess tunnel performance eg run a Ferrari model in their competitors tunnels, and vice versa

rjsa
rjsa
51
Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 03:01

Re: Differnce between scales on wind tunnel

Post

Almost three decades rusting my hydrodinamics are not that sharp, I certainly won't remember the correct terms nor the equations.

But I do remmember creating rough stripes along ship model's cross sections to force the detachment of the boundary layer -wrong transition from laminar to turbulent flow on the same area where it would happen on the real thing. And that was to mke up to an effect of the scale difference on test tanks.

ffangio
ffangio
1
Joined: 06 May 2010, 17:46
Location: London

Re: Differnce between scales on wind tunnel

Post

hardingfv32 wrote: The teams had an opportunity to develop 100% tunnels before the tunnel regs were implemented and none did so.
... apart for Honda / Brawn / Mercedes, Williams, Sauber, Toyota using their own tunnels, Renault and others using Windshear and other teams using Stuttgart you're absolutely correct...

Said with great authority Brian but you're still talking out of your backside! :lol:

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
35
Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: Differnce between scales on wind tunnel

Post

ffangio wrote:... apart for Honda / Brawn / Mercedes, Williams, Sauber, Toyota using their own tunnels, Renault and others using Windshear and other teams using Stuttgart you're absolutely correct...

Said with great authority Brian but you're still talking out of your backside! :lol:
So why was there a slow progression over 20-30 years from 30% to say 50-60% tunnel construction by the teams before the tunnel regs? Why did they ALL just spring for 100% tunnels when they had the option?

Brian

bhall
bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Differnce between scales on wind tunnel

Post

hardingfv32 wrote:[...]
Why did[n't] they ALL just spring for 100% tunnels when they had the option?

Brian
Because until very recently they were allowed unrestricted track testing.

Richard
Richard
Moderator
Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
Location: UK

Re: Difference between scales on wind tunnel

Post

Also full scale tunnels are much more expensive because the volume of air to be shifted and flow conditioned is cubic.

A team with good funding and a need to replace an ageing tunnel might have decided to use 100%. However, it would be irrational for every team to suddenly switch to 100% because some of them will they have existing facilities that are giving good results and they might have other priorities for their budgets.

Greg Locock
Greg Locock
238
Joined: 30 Jun 2012, 00:48

Re: Difference between scales on wind tunnel

Post

All of this rather ignores the difference in results you get between windtunnels of the same nominal performance.

shelly
shelly
136
Joined: 05 May 2009, 12:18

Re: Differnce between scales on wind tunnel

Post

bhallg2k wrote:
hardingfv32 wrote:[...]
Why did[n't] they ALL just spring for 100% tunnels when they had the option?

Brian
Because until very recently they were allowed unrestricted track testing.
There are other factors: power required for running a tunnel and scaled prototypes easier and quicker to build
twitter: @armchair_aero

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
166
Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: Differnce between scales on wind tunnel

Post

hardingfv32 wrote:
ffangio wrote:... apart for Honda / Brawn / Mercedes, Williams, Sauber, Toyota using their own tunnels, Renault and others using Windshear and other teams using Stuttgart you're absolutely correct...

Said with great authority Brian but you're still talking out of your backside! :lol:
So why was there a slow progression over 20-30 years from 30% to say 50-60% tunnel construction by the teams before the tunnel regs? Why did they ALL just spring for 100% tunnels when they had the option?

Brian
A variety of reasons, for sure... certainly one of them being the reason why I didn't buy a Ferrari F430 straight out of college - i.e., things cost money and there's only so much to go around with every department clamoring for it.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

gixxer_drew
gixxer_drew
29
Joined: 31 Jul 2010, 18:17
Location: Yokohama, Japan

Re: Difference between scales on wind tunnel

Post

From my experience, in rough terms:
scale^4 = cost

My experience is limited to one tunnel, one or two aeros and a few guys in the model shop. I could see that formula changing a lot if you went to multiple sites and concurrent CFD.

riff_raff
riff_raff
132
Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: Differnce between scales on wind tunnel

Post

shelly wrote: There are other factors: power required for running a tunnel and scaled prototypes easier and quicker to build
For sure, the big cost with large scale wind tunnels is operating them, and not so much with building them. However, with the advanced state of modern digital CFD tools, the primary purpose of wind tunnel testing is to validate and refine the analytical models. It is now far less expensive and much faster to optimize an aero design using digital tools.
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

riff_raff
riff_raff
132
Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: Differnce between scales on wind tunnel

Post

aussiegman wrote:I have seen very small relative scale aero models used in sealed chambers for measurements of shockwave propagation with Schlieren photography. No idea if the gas mixed or a hybrid to "scale" but there you go. Helium to nitrogen might work if it mixes properly and you get the ratio right.
The supersonic blow-down tunnels usually used de-humidified and temperature controlled air. The small-scale models we made for these tests were usually made from high strength stainless steel alloys like 15-5PH or 13-8PH.

As for the shockwave propagations shown by Schlierien images, I recall seeing the video from one particular test run where the shock wave started at the aircraft model's nose, progressed to the wing leading edges, which then created a violent pitch oscillation in the model, and ultimately caused the model to separate from its balance attachment. The 30lb stainless steel model then shot down the tunnel at around mach 2+ causing quite a bit of damage.
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

aussiegman
aussiegman
105
Joined: 07 Feb 2012, 07:16
Location: Sydney, Hong Kong & BVI

Re: Differnce between scales on wind tunnel

Post

riff_raff wrote:As for the shockwave propagations shown by Schlierien images, I recall seeing the video from one particular test run where the shock wave started at the aircraft model's nose, progressed to the wing leading edges, which then created a violent pitch oscillation in the model, and ultimately caused the model to separate from its balance attachment. The 30lb stainless steel model then shot down the tunnel at around mach 2+ causing quite a bit of damage.
30Lb at Mach 2+!!!!! OUCH!! :D

That would leave quite a hole!!
Never approach a Bull from the front, a Horse from the back, or an Idiot from any direction

shelly
shelly
136
Joined: 05 May 2009, 12:18

Re: Differnce between scales on wind tunnel

Post

riff_raff wrote:
shelly wrote: There are other factors: power required for running a tunnel and scaled prototypes easier and quicker to build
For sure, the big cost with large scale wind tunnels is operating them, and not so much with building them. However, with the advanced state of modern digital CFD tools, the primary purpose of wind tunnel testing is to validate and refine the analytical models. It is now far less expensive and much faster to optimize an aero design using digital tools.
CFD is often erratic in prediting numbers (15% error on drag, vortex pattern, detachment points etc) and is impractical for aeromaps.
As for building, I did not refer to the building of the facility, but to the building of a small model which is easier than build a full scale model (1/3 forces act on a 60% model, so you can use less material, and less expensive)
twitter: @armchair_aero