About Vettel overtaking a Toro Rosso

[raymondu999]

I was lead to this article: http://www.abc.es/deportes/f1/20121128/ ... 80851.html

Yo no hablo español, but I was reliably told it is saying Ferrari will not pursue? Can any Spaniards confirm?

Help?

In other news - Mufasa makes an interesting point about the timing of the penalty. I could imagine teams only pursuing infringements after the race, if this allows a precedent. A 20s penalty behind a safety car would severely hamper anyone's championship hunt.

[raymondu999]

In the spanish article they say also that Alonso is pushing for a Ferrari protest. I can't believe it ! Is Alonso so desesperate ?

Is it the article I put out?

[hollus]

Since the thread is going downhill already (but contains excellent detective work, kudos to some guys), and I like taking hypothetical situations to the extreme, I'll throw a thought experiment in here.
First of all, I am an Alonso fan and spent the wholelast lap hoping for a Button snafu and wondering if Webber would have reacted to it), which I am almost ashamed to admit. I also notice that most people still "protesting" here are Spanish, like me.
Now, from actualy reading all the pages here, it looks like all passes might have been under green. In the 12 minute video you can see the marshall ost, one just can't make out the flag. In any case, it is clear to see that Vergne slowed down as he separates from the guy in front of him.
So here goes the situation taken to the extreme about passing a guy that slows down under yellows:
[Thought experiment]
Lap 15 or 20 or whatever, Alonso is running, what was it, fourth? Irrelevant, what is relevant is that Vettel was just two seconds behind for a good while. Let's change the names now: Guy in front sees yellow flags and decides to slow down to 200Km/h in the straight. It looks like a flat tire, or transmission problem, or whatever. Guy behind passes his champoinship rival, who then picks up the pace again and has his team protest, a penalty ensues for passing under yellows...
[/Thought experiment]
See where these situations lead when taken to the extreme?

[Mesteño]

I was lead to this article: http://www.abc.es/deportes/f1/20121128/ ... 80851.html

Yo no hablo español, but I was reliably told it is saying Ferrari will not pursue? Can any Spaniards confirm?

Help?

In other news - Mufasa makes an interesting point about the timing of the penalty. I could imagine teams only pursuing infringements after the race, if this allows a precedent. A 20s penalty behind a safety car would severely hamper anyone's championship hunt.

It says they talked with Luca Colajani and he said they wont pursue.

I don't think Alonso is pushing them.

Yesterday I heard Carlos Miquel on the radio (one of the main f1 journalist in Spain) and he said that ferrari might be preparing a protest very carefully.

Honestly, the more I hear the more I know nothing will change.

[raymondu999]

Does anyone remember WHY the Resta Opposta was yellowed by the way?

I've had a watch of the Sky and BBC races of the first 5 laps - and other than Alonso exploring the new Turn 1 runoff twice I don't remember anything that happened there.

Lap 1 of course saw Vettel, Senna and Perez playing F1 pinball, but that should be triggering the yellow into Turn 4, rather than on the Resta Opposta.

[Kiril Varbanov]

There's a storm on Twitter right now, as usual, FIA are unavailable for comment ...

James Allen and Adam Cooper think protest is viable, while Joe Saward thinks it will be bad for the sport's image (this is oxymoron - F1 and image) to take the title away from VET. While I usually decline to comment, just like FIA, on such matters, there are rules and they have to be examined, along with the data recorded from the race and at least tell the public what's what and why.

[The Driver]

Does anyone remember WHY the Resta Opposta was yellowed by the way?

I've had a watch of the Sky and BBC races of the first 5 laps - and other than Alonso exploring the new Turn 1 runoff twice I don't remember anything that happened there.

Lap 1 of course saw Vettel, Senna and Perez playing F1 pinball, but that should be triggering the yellow into Turn 4, rather than on the Resta Opposta.

Maldonado lost it at turn 3 and crashed into the barriers on lap 2 or 3.

[Cam]

There's a storm on Twitter right now, as usual, FIA are unavailable for comment ...

James Allen and Adam Cooper think protest is viable, while Joe Saward thinks it will be bad for the sport's image (this is oxymoron - F1 and image) to take the title away from VET. While I usually decline to comment, just like FIA, on such matters, there are rules and they have to be examined, along with the data recorded from the race and at least tell the public what's what and why.

I actually agree that a protest is viable - it's certainly not cut and dry no matter how many green waved flags we can see. It's a weird situation. Should they though? That is entirely another question. If they strip Vettel, Ferrari will be the losers and Vettel will remain the 'people's' winner. Alonso will be booed the world over and the title will be hollow. He will be seen to be ripped off by an evil team jealous and crazy for a win at any cost. There is a lot more at stake here than a trophy and the next 24 hours will define the history books forever - who's prepared to try and re-write them?

[mnmracer]

The STR lifted for Vettel, that in itself is a LEGAL pass under yellow lights....moreover the Marshall also waved green flag...so it is totally safe
Kudos to vettel for spotting the marshall =D>

I think even if there were no green flag waived etc, results and Vettel's WDC should stand.

The incident happened literately at the beginning of the race. It should have been swiftly analyzed and concluded. If there was an infringement penalty should have been given early in the race. Otherwise you are basically preventing RBR and Vettel to react and administer their race accordingly. RBR could have retired Webber's car, Vettel would have pushed more to get the next guy etc...

Also if I am RBR, if Ferrari protests I would also put a protest that Alonso gained advantage on Webber/Massa after he overshoot the T1.

There are so many other secondary considerations that FIA can not sort out if it tries to change race results at this stage...

More so even, he overshot T1 under yellow, which is about as clear a sign of 'not slowing down' as you can get. It'd be interesting at one hand, but it'd be very messy.

However,
I do not know why this is still being discussed at all still, as we've had our answer.
Even if some people don't see a green flag, logical deduction tells us there was. There must be a flag being waved at that marshall post at that point, regardless of color.

• If the yellow zone was to be conintued, yellow must be waved as a repeat there.
• if the yellow zone was to end, a green flag must be waved to signal the end of yellow.
  Basic marshalling rules on any track.

Certainly it should be clear (also comparing footage of when there was a yellow flag) that the marshall post did not wave yellow at that moment.

[raymondu999]

However, I do not know why this is still being discussed at all still, as we've had our answer.

OKAY

[vall]

However, I do not know why this is still being discussed at all still, as we've had our answer.

OKAY

as I posted extracts from Apendix H, it is not clear if the flags are that matter or the flashing light screens. They say that if more than one means is used for signals (in this case flags and lights) a Supplement specific for each race should say which signals are with higher priority. So, it boils down to weather light signals have higher priority for this particular race.

[Nando]

Does anyone remember WHY the Resta Opposta was yellowed by the way?

I've had a watch of the Sky and BBC races of the first 5 laps - and other than Alonso exploring the new Turn 1 runoff twice I don't remember anything that happened there.

Lap 1 of course saw Vettel, Senna and Perez playing F1 pinball, but that should be triggering the yellow into Turn 4, rather than on the Resta Opposta.

I think it was debris at T1 off line and debris where Vettel crashed into Senna.

[The Driver]

Does anyone remember WHY the Resta Opposta was yellowed by the way?

I've had a watch of the Sky and BBC races of the first 5 laps - and other than Alonso exploring the new Turn 1 runoff twice I don't remember anything that happened there.

Lap 1 of course saw Vettel, Senna and Perez playing F1 pinball, but that should be triggering the yellow into Turn 4, rather than on the Resta Opposta.

I think it was debris at T1 off line and debris where Vettel crashed into Senna.

No. It was Maldonado who had crashed at turn 3.

[mnmracer]

The gif has been cleaned up a bit, and now clearly shows a flag being waved.


Anyone still convinved that is somehow a yellow flag?

[Nando]

It has always showed clearly a flag was being waved. The issue some have (probably color-blind) was if it was yellow or not.