2014 Turbos and driving style

[ringo]

I wonder how different the bearings will be with the generator on the shaft between the compressor and turbine.
The cooling medium for the generator is also a concern.

I was thinking if i a turbo supplier would consider air foil bearings for the turbo. I am sure this technology has been around long enough now for it to reach a stage where it can be implemented on an automotive turbine.

an article:
http://www.turboblower.net/part_1.pdf

another:
http://www.westwind-airbearings.com/air ... riefv2.pdf

[pgfpro]

Sorry took me a while to get back to this one...

I was shock to hear that the Indy Turbo cars had some lag and the drivers were adjusting their driving skills to/for the change.

The BW EFR turbos are a break through in technology and I would of thought their would have been no lag at all.

As said I am currently running EFR turbo's, now five of them being the 6258, 6758, 7064, 7163 and a 8374. Whilst they are amazing and light years ahead of competitors, the turbine/compressor shaft will always have mass and as such require a certain amount of energy to get to operating. In the EFR's that threshold is just much lower than it was previously. Where the EFR's shine is you can run a physically smaller and also much lighter unit to reduce the operating threshold to a very low RPM number while also being able to flow greater volume of air. As an example the 6258 spools quicker and earlier than a Garrett GT2860RS, has better transient response but will also flow greater volumes over a larger Garrett GT2871R.

Being a turbo guy myself I always wonder if the lag people think of today's is just the massive vertical torque increase when the turbo kicks in.

My EFR's have always provided very linear response. No "vertical torque increases". Below is a dyno graph of a 6258 on a 2.0Lt 4 cylinder runnign E85 only with different wategate spring pressures. The softer spring was blowing open so we moved to a stiffer spring.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t262 ... 8270kw.jpg

Again, no vertical torque rise. This is the 7163 on the same car. We ran out of injector (1100cc were too small) at 325kw at the front wheels so an estimated 375/380kw or 500hp at the flywheel from a dyno roll down. We are now running larger 2200cc injectors and 3 pumps.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t262 ... an2012.jpg

You really only get that sort of all or nothing torque from drag car/dyno queen engines which are all top end power or poor turbo choice for a circuit car. Give me "area under the curve" any day over a big head line number.

I have install a few turbo kits on stock Honda engines and the customer will say wow I thought there wasn't going to be any lag. But what their feeling is just the change of the torque curve that has almost doubled. So when they blow a charge pipe coupler they realize how much more power and torque has been made from the turbo system and really there isn't any lag it was just slow before.

So with this all said I think the new F1 system will help with the hard hit from from the turbo and the MGU will be able to control this and make the car more drivable.

So considering the the old F1 and soon to come F1 turbos:

The old F1 turbo's were very crude in aerodynamic design, metallurgy and control systems. As a consequence they were typically very "peaky". Early wastegate controls were not from all reports reliable or very tunable. Compressor and turbine aero was poor by todays standards as well. This and the materials used which were typically heavier made the boost threshold and transient response typically poor when all combined.

Modern F1 turbo's will have much more advanced aero designs, metallury and faster more reliable control systems. Couple this with electrical assistance and it may see almost seamless boost delivery across the RPM range as there will be almost no operating range the turbo will not be able to operate in being driven by either the electrical unit or the exhaust gases.

I 100% agree that turbo technology is going to make turbo lag a thing of the past. One of the new concepts here in the US to reduce all turbo lag and make big power is turbo compounding on small CI engines. They are using a large turbo feeding the intake side of a smaller turbo. This comes from the diesel world and now used on gasoline engines. The results are amazing.
1000+HP 2.0L with no lag at all

Not only do they make killer power with no lag but they do it with much better engine delta P's and run at perfect compressor pressure ratios. Something even the best single turbo's of today can't do by themselves.

This is what I have been building and testing for the last year and a half on my personal hill climb car.
BW S400SX4 80mm comp wheel, primary @112lbs/min feeding a Forced Performance RED @65lbs/min secondary.

I wish F1 would of allowed two turbo's to take advantage of this system.

[wuzak]

I would think that the MGUH in the turbo would make the engine respond much as a mechanically supercharged engine would, but probably with better response - because the compressor can be powered at will. When the engine is making enough power to drive the turbine then it will operate as a turbo engine. But no lag.

[wuzak]

I 100% agree that turbo technology is going to make turbo lag a thing of the past. One of the new concepts here in the US to reduce all turbo lag and make big power is turbo compounding on small CI engines. They are using a large turbo feeding the intake side of a smaller turbo. This comes from the diesel world and now used on gasoline engines. The results are amazing.
1000+HP 2.0L with no lag at all

Not only do they make killer power with no lag but they do it with much better engine delta P's and run at perfect compressor pressure ratios. Something even the best single turbo's of today can't do by themselves.

This is what I have been building and testing for the last year and a half on my personal hill climb car.
BW S400SX4 80mm comp wheel, primary @112lbs/min feeding a Forced Performance RED @65lbs/min secondary.

I wish F1 would of allowed two turbo's to take advantage of this system.

I don't think two sequential turbos, as you suggest, will provide that much of an advantage comapred to what F1 will have.

However, if multi-stage turbines were allowed the exhaust energy recovered could be better than what they will get with the single radial turbine.

[pgfpro]

I 100% agree that turbo technology is going to make turbo lag a thing of the past. One of the new concepts here in the US to reduce all turbo lag and make big power is turbo compounding on small CI engines. They are using a large turbo feeding the intake side of a smaller turbo. This comes from the diesel world and now used on gasoline engines. The results are amazing.
1000+HP 2.0L with no lag at all

Not only do they make killer power with no lag but they do it with much better engine delta P's and run at perfect compressor pressure ratios. Something even the best single turbo's of today can't do by themselves.

This is what I have been building and testing for the last year and a half on my personal hill climb car.
BW S400SX4 80mm comp wheel, primary @112lbs/min feeding a Forced Performance RED @65lbs/min secondary.

I wish F1 would of allowed two turbo's to take advantage of this system.

I don't think two sequential turbos, as you suggest, will provide that much of an advantage comapred to what F1 will have.

However, if multi-stage turbines were allowed the exhaust energy recovered could be better than what they will get with the single radial turbine.

The turbo compounding that I'm talking about would IMO help the new F1 2014 engines in these areas.

1)Increase compressor efficiency by lowering compressor's pressure ratios. This is a major gain. By increasing compressor efficiency you make more energy available at the turbine because less power is needed to turn the compressor wheel to achieve the desired boost. This is a known fact in turbo compounding.

2)Lower back pressure!!!! This is something I think that keeps getting over looked on this forum. Anytime you load the turbine you will increase the engines back pressure via turbine size or in the new F1 turbo engines case the MGUH unit. This then kills the engines delta P. I know of a local car that just gained 65whp by reducing back pressure by a few psi. This is why I have been saying that I don't think we will see anymore then 40hp to 50hp max available at any given time coming from the turbine before we even take into account that the engines delta p will suffer. So IMO it will be around 30hp net. So back pressure will play a major factor. This is another known fact in turbo compounding.

3)Less energy wasted by electric spinning the turbo and more energy saved by letting the turbo make its own boost and staying in generator mode.

[g-force_addict]

I was just thinking back and brushing up on my Senna history - Senna used to kind of blip the throttle constantly to keep the turbo spooled; and to eliminate turbo lag. Would such a thing be possible/needed/beneficial with the 2014 turbos?

IMO they would still suffer turbo lag despite electric add-on.
Computers would hot blow or cold blow the turbos until banned.

[wuzak]

IMO they would still suffer turbo lag despite electric add-on.

How do you figure that?

Turbo lag is caused by the time it takes to spool up the turbo to make boost. With the MGUH attached it would be possible to make max boost at 0 rpm and off-throttle. Not that you would want to do that.

Computers would hot blow or cold blow the turbos until banned.

Could you descrube what you mean by this, and to what end will they do it?

And how will it cause turbo lag, since the turbos will need to be spooled up to do this.

[jamsbong]

I think I understand the 2014. I've stop reading after page2... Sorry.
Since throttle will be a function of torque rather than the amount of throttle opening (which is non linear), the engineers will work hard to create a web of maps. Like engine maps, MGU maps and other system maps to make sure that under all situation, the drivers get that linear torque response from the right foot application.

The problem of turbo lag (or any form of delays) must be eliminated to ensure the shortest lap times and minimise fuel waste.
The MGUH must be ready to spool up the turbo so that it provides sufficient air pressure into the engine. It will work like an instant supercharger at first. Then as the exhaust pressure builds up, the MGUH reverts back to a generator, charging the battery. The idea is to make the turbo free from inertia loss using the MGUH.

If that's not enough, Drivers can use the KERS button to activate another 160HP.
I wonder if there is a KERS map torque map vs vehicle speed? That may explain why Ferrari is so fast at the start line.

[Pierce89]

If that's not enough, Drivers can use the KERS button to activate another 160HP.
I wonder if there is a KERS map torque map vs vehicle speed? That may explain why Ferrari is so fast at the start line.

There is no KERS button in 2014. The electric motors must operate on the throttle pedal. IIRC The % throttle pedal travel must correspond with the % percent of torque demand from the electric motor.

[jamsbong]

There is no KERS button in 2014. The electric motors must operate on the throttle pedal. IIRC The % throttle pedal travel must correspond with the % percent of torque demand from the electric motor.

Oh! Thanks for the info. So, that means the amount of energy used from KERS or MGUH is governed by the ECU? In other words, engineers have complete control of it. That means you'll want to optimize it for each race. Am I right??

[raymondu999]

There is no KERS button in 2014. The electric motors must operate on the throttle pedal. IIRC The % throttle pedal travel must correspond with the % percent of torque demand from the electric motor.

Oh! Thanks for the info. So, that means the amount of energy used from KERS or MGUH is governed by the ECU? In other words, engineers have complete control of it. That means you'll want to optimize it for each race. Am I right??

Wouldn't you want the maximum, regardless of racetrack? Bearing in mind the energy storage and harvesting capabilities of the car, and reliability, that is.

[wuzak]

There is no KERS button in 2014. The electric motors must operate on the throttle pedal. IIRC The % throttle pedal travel must correspond with the % percent of torque demand from the electric motor.

Oh! Thanks for the info. So, that means the amount of energy used from KERS or MGUH is governed by the ECU? In other words, engineers have complete control of it. That means you'll want to optimize it for each race. Am I right??

The driver has control of it with his right foot. The engineers will have maps which the driver can select. But ultimately the control with be the driver.

[wuzak]

If that's not enough, Drivers can use the KERS button to activate another 160HP.
I wonder if there is a KERS map torque map vs vehicle speed? That may explain why Ferrari is so fast at the start line.

The energy generated by the MGUH can be used directly by the MGUK (formerly KERS) motor or can be stored.

The MGUK is limited to 160hp, so if you are getting 50hp from the MGUH you will only need 110hp from storage.

[jamsbong]

Oh! Thanks for the info. So, that means the amount of energy used from KERS or MGUH is governed by the ECU? In other words, engineers have complete control of it. That means you'll want to optimize it for each race. Am I right??

Wouldn't you want the maximum, regardless of racetrack? Bearing in mind the energy storage and harvesting capabilities of the car, and reliability, that is.

What I am trying to say is, for example, if traction is limited (lets say it is rains or Monaco); You won't want to have full power and waste your joules (and fuel) on spinning the wheels. You would want a gentle torque profile that lay power to the floor more gradually. Moreover, you will need at least 2 maps - One for overtaking and the other for maximum fuel efficiency. So plenty of maps can be considered....