Engine oil

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
olefud
olefud
79
Joined: 13 Mar 2011, 00:10
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA

Re: Engine oil

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Raptor22 wrote:its not the wt of the oil that matter buts its viscosity index under the conditions you are refering too.

what is oil wt anyway? we talkin universal saybolt second or centipoise.

50wt means absolutely nothing.

If you are refering to SAE J300 table classifcations then its worth understanding that there are 40W oils that perform similarly to 50W oils because those classifications refer to a range of kinematic viscosities and VI's of oils.
The 50wt was a generic reference to the old 50W-50 “racing oil” to (rather poorly) refute the thought that thicker oil provides better protection. When viscosity stabilizers were suspect, between greater clearances and thinning of the oil with temperature, higher viscosity was perhaps more appropriate. Now, with roller valve lifter, as riff-raff has discussed, perhaps the critical lube point is the hydrodynamic bearing wedge that doesn’t need particularly high viscosity.

Raptor22
Raptor22
26
Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 22:48

Re: Engine oil

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Correct, it just needs consistency of viscosity under a wide range of stress, i.e. VI (viscosity index).

The terms wt and the SAE J300 classes are pretty poor when it comes to aspect of hydrodynamic wedge pressure but its the most commonly used references because its what people seen in engine manuals and on the side of oil cans

riff_raff
riff_raff
132
Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: Engine oil

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olefud wrote:The 50wt was a generic reference to the old 50W-50 “racing oil” to (rather poorly) refute the thought that thicker oil provides better protection. When viscosity stabilizers were suspect, between greater clearances and thinning of the oil with temperature, higher viscosity was perhaps more appropriate. Now, with roller valve lifter, as riff-raff has discussed, perhaps the critical lube point is the hydrodynamic bearing wedge that doesn’t need particularly high viscosity.
The fluid mechanics/heat transfer/tribology/etc. principles underlying hydrodynamic contacts are similar, whether the hydrodynamic contact is in a journal bearing, a rolling element bearing, or between gear teeth. However, journal bearing contacts have two unique design characteristics that requires different lubricant properties from those used with gears and rolling element bearings. First of all, the hydrodynamic contact in journal bearings consists entirely of relative sliding motion between the bearing/journal surfaces, while the hydrodynamic contact in gear teeth and rolling element bearings consists mostly of conjugate/rolling motion with little sliding. Thus, journal bearings with the large amount of shear created in the oil film, are far more affected by higher oil viscosity in terms of efficiency loss. Gears and rolling element bearings can tolerate use of high viscosity lubricants without incurring large efficiency losses, while journal bearings can not.

The other issue with journal bearings is their much lower allowable film pressure limits, due to the much lower compressive surface fatigue stress capability of the bearing materials, versus the hardened steel materials used for gears and rolling element bearings. While the surface contact fatigue stress limit for a gear or rolling element bearing might typically be something like 180ksi, a typical engine journal bearing shell would have a contact fatigue stress limit of something like 45ksi or less.
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

olefud
olefud
79
Joined: 13 Mar 2011, 00:10
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA

Re: Engine oil

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Any thoughts on using the Sommerfield Number to determine an appropriate viscosity?

Raptor22
Raptor22
26
Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 22:48

Re: Engine oil

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It IS used to assist in determining an appropriate viscosity for a bearing oil, more specifically the Petroff's number side of the equation is part of the bearing designers toolbox

riff_raff
riff_raff
132
Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: Engine oil

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olefud wrote:Any thoughts on using the Sommerfield Number to determine an appropriate viscosity?
One of the variables used to calculate the Sommerfeld number is the absolute viscosity of the lubricant. But as I noted, due to local heat transfer condition present at the hydrodynamic fluid film contact, it can be difficult to establish a true viscosity value where it really matters.
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

olefud
olefud
79
Joined: 13 Mar 2011, 00:10
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA

Re: Engine oil

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riff_raff wrote:
olefud wrote:Any thoughts on using the Sommerfield Number to determine an appropriate viscosity?
One of the variables used to calculate the Sommerfeld number is the absolute viscosity of the lubricant. But as I noted, due to local heat transfer condition present at the hydrodynamic fluid film contact, it can be difficult to establish a true viscosity value where it really matters.
With so much going on with the oil it’s difficult to identify the limiting factor. The hydrodynamic mechanism would seem to be one of the more robust and forgiving assuming good bearing and journal integrity.

The actual hydrodynamic wedge moves through the oil rather like a pressure wave. Only a micro volume of oil is involved in the high shear critical volume that generates heat, and then only for a short period of time. And this volume is under high pressure that increases its viscosity which somewhat offsets the lowering of the viscosity with heat from shear energy.

The incompressibility of the oil rather than its viscosity would seem to be the important parameter in hydrodynamic lube. Wear and failure occur more generally under boundary lube conditions rather than with hydrodynamic -though when hydrodynamic does fail lubrication reverts to boundary, so perhaps this isn’t fair.