Epitrochoidal Crankshafts in F1

[Crazy Bored]

I am not an engine guy, but I found this post on reddit:
http://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/commen ... on_deemed/

Apparently, Ferrari is investigating using the idea presented in this patent:
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/56516639/Ep ... nt-7185557

Most importantly, he claims that it's legal for the 2014 engines.

I am surprised I did not find this here first. Is there any truth to it actually being deemed being legal? Also interested in any general comments anyone has on this idea. My impressions are that it would be a valuable tool to have control over what speed the piston is going at various parts of the cycle. I have nothing to add, I just wanted to start a topic here and hope to find some more reliable information.

[wuzak]

I wonder if the extra friction from the gears and extra bearings will negate the advantages.

[Drewd11]

I wonder if the extra friction from the gears and extra bearings will negate the advantages.

Didnt get the chance to read the whole patent application but looks to me like there isn't that much in the way of extra gears and bearings, just a differently shaped crankshaft to allow more dwell time at the bottom of the piston movement. The idea is that this extracts more power from the powerstroke by extending distance for which the explosion powers the piston downwards.
Cool idea, I'd be really excited to see more of the work going into 2014 engines in F1, and I'll definitely read the full patent application to see how the change affects valve timing and efficiency which I think would be the limitations to the application of this idea. I think the increase in power output might be somewhat negated by having a shorter exhausting timeframe, but maybe some camshaft wizardry could solve it?

[Tommy Cookers]

so this is 2014-legal but an Atkinson cycle (extra expansion) type crank arrangement (familiar to Honda) is not ?

[wuzak]

I wonder if the extra friction from the gears and extra bearings will negate the advantages.

Didnt get the chance to read the whole patent application but looks to me like there isn't that much in the way of extra gears and bearings, just a differently shaped crankshaft to allow more dwell time at the bottom of the piston movement. The idea is that this extracts more power from the powerstroke by extending distance for which the explosion powers the piston downwards.
Cool idea, I'd be really excited to see more of the work going into 2014 engines in F1, and I'll definitely read the full patent application to see how the change affects valve timing and efficiency which I think would be the limitations to the application of this idea. I think the increase in power output might be somewhat negated by having a shorter exhausting timeframe, but maybe some camshaft wizardry could solve it?

Didn't see this?

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7185557-0-large.jpg

[Crazy Bored]

so this is 2014-legal but an Atkinson cycle (extra expansion) type crank arrangement (familiar to Honda) is not ?

It really is just one random person on the internet claiming it's legal. So yea, we all should be very skeptical.

My intent was to see if anyone here had more information, since this is the best place to go with these sorts of questions.

[ninno_]

does anyone have some extra information on internet about this patent or some link?

[olefud]

does anyone have some extra information on internet about this patent or some link?

Just Google US Patent 7,185,557. The US Patent and Trademark Office has a good search engine –just make sure it’s .gov

[ninno_]

does anyone have some extra information on internet about this patent or some link?

Just Google US Patent 7,185,557. The US Patent and Trademark Office has a good search engine –just make sure it’s .gov

thank you!

[Drewd11]

I wonder if the extra friction from the gears and extra bearings will negate the advantages.

Didnt get the chance to read the whole patent application but looks to me like there isn't that much in the way of extra gears and bearings, just a differently shaped crankshaft to allow more dwell time at the bottom of the piston movement. The idea is that this extracts more power from the powerstroke by extending distance for which the explosion powers the piston downwards.
Cool idea, I'd be really excited to see more of the work going into 2014 engines in F1, and I'll definitely read the full patent application to see how the change affects valve timing and efficiency which I think would be the limitations to the application of this idea. I think the increase in power output might be somewhat negated by having a shorter exhausting timeframe, but maybe some camshaft wizardry could solve it?

Didn't see this?

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7185557-0-large.jpg

That'll teach me to post after only skimming. Thanks for the clarification.

[knuto]

Here's one by Gomecsys:

http://www.gomecsys.com/uk/product_grou ... gines.html

[Crazy Bored]

I wonder if the extra friction from the gears and extra bearings will negate the advantages.

I figured this would certainly be a disadvantage to the system, as well.

But then, from the website above:
"2% efficiency gain is realised from a reduction in engine friction."

How is that possible?

[wuzak]

I wonder if the extra friction from the gears and extra bearings will negate the advantages.

I figured this would certainly be a disadvantage to the system, as well.

But then, from the website above:
"2% efficiency gain is realised from a reduction in engine friction."

How is that possible?

They must be claiming lower piston side loading?

[riff_raff]

There would be no improvements from using this system in any recip piston engine. The additional mechanical losses from the added bearing surfaces and gear contacts would more than offset any potential gains from improved combustion efficiency. With a high rpm F1 engine, this concept would present especially difficult problems, due to much higher masses that the rod bearing must deal with, the larger size needed for the rod big end, and the large, reversing dynamic forces that the phasing gears must accommodate.

I've seen lots of similar concepts. This is just a new twist on an old idea. But it offers no real improvement.

[Caito]

[DETOUR]
If you don't know what they're talking about with the Atkinson and Honda thing, check this:
http://world.honda.com/powerproducts-technology/exlink/

"Even with its extra linkage expansion parts, EXlink has the same amount of engine friction as a conventional engine, thereby reaping the full fuel efficiency benefit of the Atkinson cycle."

[DETOUR]

All that extra mass and inertia seems too much for formula 1 rpm and accelerations. Though it might work great in an electric generator :p