Changes made to F1 engines

[Vladmir123]

I'm sorry if this has been discussed before but I really can't find the related posts. f1 has this ability to take nominal 3L V6 engines and somehow tune them up to the point where they can produce up to 1500 HP. (The X2010 designed by Newey is apparently capable of that ). Can some one please help me out with the changes being incorporated or direct me to a few threads or articles that del with the the same ? I can't comprehend something this elusive. Thank you

[Tim.Wright]

First point to clear up is that the X2010 is not a real car with a real design but a PR stunt from a console game manufacturer.

[Vladmir123]

I know. But they claim that it's nothing unrealistic and that it can be made to run to exactly the specification designed to. Anyways that was just an example. Eem F1 comes close to doing that. I'm sure they would achieve much more power I'd it wasn't for any restrictions. . My point is related to the engine development which F1 and other motor sport organisations carry out. What kind of drastic changes do they make ? Any articles or threads that could help ?

[matt21]

Which engines are you talking about?

Tuned road engines or pure-breed race engines? It is quite a different approach to engine building, e.g. tolerances are so tight in race engines that you have to heat them up before starting. There are quite a few good books on the market about this topic.

[Vladmir123]

I was talking about race engines. They churn up almost 300HP / litre of displacement in spite of being naturally aspirated. Wanted to know a little more about how that's achieved. Only tolerances and rpm differ ?

[Vladmir123]

Which engines are you talking about?

Tuned road engines or pure-breed race engines? It is quite a different approach to engine building, e.g. tolerances are so tight in race engines that you have to heat them up before starting. There are quite a few good books on the market about this topic.

Could u kindly recommend a few ? Thank you so much.

[ESPImperium]

The V6 fan engine in the X2010 could be done in reality, but it would last 250Km before it needed a rebuild and also eat about 100Kg of fuel for every 30Km to 40Km it does depending on gearing as you can fuel save and go 40Km with a long 7th or go for all out pace and go for a shorter 7th and reach that V-Max and go for a fuel stop every 30Km.

Go onto the 10Km high sped test track on GT5 and test out differing gear ratios and fuel levels and you'll see what im on about. Even do a spec series race over 10 laps, ive done it on a 2 stopper on laps 4 and 8, the AI cars stop on 3, 6 & 9, and race away from you in the first stint and then when they pit, you race past them and you lead for a lap then by the start of their second stint they cannot come back at you as you have fuel to spare.

Ive done it in GT, and cant really be beaten. I drive to preserve fuel in that race, not to preserve tyres or anything else.

I tune most of my cars in GT or Forza to have a longer 5th, 6th or 7th gear in order to save a little fuel, in F1:CE all my setups are tuned for ultimate pace so im just about 500rpm short of topping out at the longest straight as i want to be racey in F1:CE. However i can also save on average 1 lap of fuel on each stint as well with my driving style and mu usage of the analogue stick.

Is a 1500Hp V6 achievable today, yes, but is it economically sustainable, not really.

[Tommy Cookers]

Which engines are you talking about?

Tuned road engines or pure-breed race engines? It is quite a different approach to engine building, e.g. tolerances are so tight in race engines that you have to heat them up before starting. There are quite a few good books on the market about this topic.

you mean the fits, not the tolerances ?
an F1 piston is made somewhat oval and intentionally tight fitting when cold but at running temperature it has become round
this distortion happens because it is hugely asymmetrical, being mostly gudgeon pin/wrist pin boss and related structure
due to the extremely large bore:stroke ratio, and the extreme squatness to reduce engine height

race engine tolerances are no higher than production engine tolerances
how could they be ? ...... why would they be ?
the mass production 6 or 7 year warranty demonstrates tight tolerances (and related good surface finish etc)


BTW even with the looser rules as at the peak of the 3 litre V10
a V6 with the proven F1 b:s ratio of 2.7 would 'only' manage about 16000 rpm and 800 bhp
potentially 20000rpm/1000 bhp with eg 2 rod/8 valve non-cylindrical 'cylinders' like the Honda NR500 and a bore:stroke ratio of 4

[Lycoming]

A big part of it is the fact that they don't need to last as long. You can get 200000+ km on a road car without ever changing the con rod, crank shaft or the bolts that attach the con rod to the piston. An F1 engine gets, what, 1/100 of that distance? Ever seen an S-n curve for steel? Basically, on a log plot, the strength of steel starts off high, then rapidly drops off until, to survive 10 years in a road car, you essentially have to treat the strength of steel as being a fraction of what it was when not subject to so many fatigue cycles. In a race engine, you can replace these parts frequently, and so the same part is effectively much stronger, and thus can be made lighter. At the same time, you can run higher RPMs without worrying about it as much, since you can just replace the part; 18 000 RPM will quickly lead to fatigue failures of parts subject to fully reversed loading cycles, such as the con rod bolts.

Your road car engine will be as powerful as a race engine when they figure out how to make carbon fiber engine bolts, since cfrp has pretty good fatigue performance. But by then, we'll probably be making monocoques by growing them as single crystal diamonds using chemical vapor deposition.

[flmkane]

You do realize that BMW made a 1600hp 4 cylinder F1 engine in the 80s right?

[Tommy Cookers]

You do realize that BMW made a 1600hp 4 cylinder F1 engine in the 80s right?

presumably you have in mind the turbocharged 1.5 litre 4 cyl engine ?
none of that eras race engines seems to have given more than about 1050-1100 bhp even with unlimited fuel quantity
the biggest figure of 1300 bhp was for a qualifying engine after BMW had dispersed the engine supply (so not strictly BMW)
this figure was an estimate, it could not be measured, the dyno used would not support it (one way or another)
because a qualifying engine might have a 5 minute life, there wouldn't be much dyno work anyway

[autogyro]

In anycase a good road car engine is more powerful than an F1 engine at the range of rpm it is designed to operate at.

[Richard]

What are your units and measure of "powerful"? Are you comparing engines of the same displacement? Could you give some examples?

[autogyro]

It doesnt matter Richard.
bhp kw what ever.
Between 500 rpm and 2500 rpm most road car engines have more power than an F1 engine.

[Richard]

That argument work both ways, an F1 engine produces far more power at 15k rpm than a road car at 15k rpm (don't try it at home!)