Changes made to F1 engines

[autogyro]

That argument work both ways, an F1 engine produces far more power at 15k rpm than a road car at 15k rpm (don't try it at home!)

The argument works both ways but the vehicle wont.
An F1 engine in an average road car would result in either a blown clutch or a stalled engine.

[Richard]

I'm not sure what your point is. Why is it relevant that an engine designed for one application is no good in another?

What next - Aeroplane afterburners are terrible for cooking chickens? I mean that in good humour to illustrate my confusion.

[flynfrog]

rocket engines have higher fuel consumption than a Prius!

[autogyro]

I'm not sure what your point is. Why is it relevant that an engine designed for one application is no good in another?

What next - Aeroplane afterburners are terrible for cooking chickens ?

The point is that the original poster was asking if ordinary road engines can be brought up to F1 power levels.
It is a pointless question because there is no comparison.

I know a lot about cooking chickens and a little about afterburners.
I think I could use one to cook a chicken given a little time.

[Tim.Wright]

It doesnt matter Richard.
bhp kw what ever.
Between 500 rpm and 2500 rpm most road car engines have more power than an F1 engine.

Last I checked, F1 engines idle at about 6000RPM. What would be the point in having power in a rev range you never use?

[mep]

f1 has this ability to take nominal 3L V6 engines and somehow tune them up to the point where they can produce up to 1500 HP. Can some one please help me out with the changes being incorporated or direct me to a few threads or articles that del with the the same ? I can't comprehend something this elusive. Thank you

It is not possible to tune a road engine to become a F1 engine with same displacement. A F1 engine with fixed displacement generates its power with high rpms. Special designs are required in order to achieve such high engine speeds. Such as minimising inertia and friction of moving parts. It is important to have a more squared bore to stroke ratio. Piston speed has to stay in certain limits otherwise the lubrication film will breakaway. Also the valve area has to be maximised and the gas exchange optimised. This can only be achieved when the engine is designed like that from the beginning on. It affects the base geometries which can’t be changed on an existing engine.

This might be a good comparison:
All mammals on this world are having the same base design. The bone structure is always the same just that the size varies. However, an elephant might do lots of exercises but it will never become a sprinter such as a leopard. The geometrical constrains of its body simply don’t allow this. The same is true for an engine. A long stoke engine can have good low rev. torque and efficiency but it will never become a sprinter.

[Tommy Cookers]

Last I checked, F1 engines idle at about 6000RPM. What would be the point in having power in a rev range you never use?

conventionally we assume 18000 rpm F1 engines must have a crankshaft natural (critical) torsional rpm of say 24000 rpm ?
(although the very short stroke helps, to attain this the main and big-end journal diameters still need to be very large)

but if they idle at 6000 rpm the crankshafts could be designed to have a critical rpm of maybe 4500 rpm
and so have very much smaller journal diameters, saving a lot of bearing friction and some rod weight
also critical rpm for piston ring flutter would similarly be easier/better if designed down to 4500 rpm

critical ring flutter rpm has sometimes been (at a 'do-not-use' point) within the nominal rev range eg Brundle's F1 Peugeot engine
does the same currently apply with crankshafts ie designed for critical rpm at a 'dnu' point within the nominal rev range ?
(this practice certainly is/was used in aircraft)

[matt21]

You do realize that BMW made a 1600hp 4 cylinder F1 engine in the 80s right?

presumably you have in mind the turbocharged 1.5 litre 4 cyl engine ?
none of that eras race engines seems to have given more than about 1050-1100 bhp even with unlimited fuel quantity
the biggest figure of 1300 bhp was for a qualifying engine after BMW had dispersed the engine supply (so not strictly BMW)
this figure was an estimate, it could not be measured, the dyno used would not support it (one way or another)
because a qualifying engine might have a 5 minute life, there wouldn't be much dyno work anyway

BMW quit at the End of 1986. This year they achieved the highest qualifying boosts due to rocket fuel. At Monza 1986 they had a pressure reading of 5.5 bar. This is worth around 1500 bhp for about 3 laps.
in 1987 they were restricted to 4 bar boost. Then the engines were called Megatron.

[Tommy Cookers]

BMW quit at the End of 1986. This year they achieved the highest qualifying boosts due to rocket fuel. At Monza 1986 they had a pressure reading of 5.5 bar. This is worth around 1500 bhp for about 3 laps.
in 1987 they were restricted to 4 bar boost. Then the engines were called Megatron.

rockets have conspicuous power (often with unremarkable fuels) because they are freely supplied with liquid or solid oxidiser
that is they do little or no flow work to get this
this (partly) inbuilt oxidiser is a feature of Nitromethane fuel, long since banned from F1
a F1 car needs to suck in about 1.5 million litres of air in a race
without any help from Nitromethane, that's a lot of flow work (and it takes a long time)

when our friend Mr Bamsey wrote about rocket fuel he meant 'rocket' fuel ie a fuel that would allow high power with turbocharging
he meant relatively road-normal fuel with significant amounts of Toluene added
Toluene is not unlike some minor natural constituents of road fuel, it has very high resistance to detonation with a rich mixture
but the F1 mandated Octane tests (that measure detonation resistance of road vehicle fuels) do not use a rich mixture
so Toluene blends were F1 legal ie 102 Octane in the mandated tests RON and MON
but turbo engines could use a much greater supercharge pressure with them than with 102 Octane RON & MON road fuel
and so get much more power

Toluene has quite poor energy content by weight and relative to Oxygen or engine displacement (so would be a poor fuel for 2014 F1)
but its high density gives it high energy per litre
when the FIA limited fuel quantity by tankage litres the engine producers greatly raised Toluene to eg 84%
adding another constituent (Heptane) to keep RON and MON down to 102

so undermining the power-limiting intent of the fuel quantity rules
and for the second time making fools of the FIA

[WhiteBlue]

The original poster is probably not aware of the 1985/6 turbo engines. He would not have asked the question that way if he was. The 1500 hp BMW 1.5 L 4 cyl. engine btw began it's life as a road car engine. The power was primarily added by turbo charging. That can be done to a 3L V6 with more ease. So there should not be a question about taking a road car block and pumping it up to that kind of power. Naturally you would have to replace all internal bits down to the last crank shaft bearing and the shaft itself. The whole thing would be a moot exercise because it would not serve any legitimate purpose. You also have to consider that modern blocks are designed with a lot less excess material and safety in mind than the BMW block from the early seventies that was turned into an F1 engine. So there are tons of reasons why such a project makes no sense. IMO the FiA has done a very clever and useful job with the new for 2014 turbo engine specification. That project will soon impact on the F1 tracks in a big way and will highlight the engineering capabilities of modern F1 engine design. The engines will be both powerful and fuel saving at the same time. People will be impressed and manufacturers will have a show case for the cost they incur with their F1 participation.

[xxChrisxx]

You do realize that BMW made a 1600hp 4 cylinder F1 engine in the 80s right?

The only engine that gains more power with every year that passes.

[Billzilla]

but if they idle at 6000 rpm ....

FWIW they idle at about 4,000 rpm.
And the BMW F1 turbo engine was about 1200 - 1300 hp in qualifying trim, about 200 hp less in race trim.
One of them briefly hit the limit of a 1450 hp dyno but the dyno wasn't loaded properly so it wasn't a reliable reading.