2013 Monaco Grand Prix

[oT v1]

Kimi should have played the Alonso card and fought into the corner and ran on, its obvious he closed the door, rightly or wrongly. Surprised Alosno had to give the place back to Perez, he has played that card many times and got away with it in the past (especially against Webber, not sure of the year but it was 05/04 i think)

[beelsebob]

And with the way Perez was all over the place today, I am inclined to apportion more of the blame on him.

Which is wrong. All previous moves made by Perez have absolutely nothing to do with the Raikkonen-Perez situation. Everything outside that little space of time is irrelevant.

Not really. Perez may think he drove a great race, but to me he seemed out of control and desperate all the time. I was waiting for him to wreck something, seriously. And he did.

The point that turbof1 is making is that you can't make a decission on an individual incident based on evidence associated with a bunch of previous incidents.

Suppose I go out and stab 5 people. I'm tried and convicted of these offences. A month later, there's a stabbing in my neighbourhood, and I was out at the time... Am I magically guilty?

Again, Perez was playing it a bit too lose in the race today, but in the incident with Kimi, he was most certainly not at fault.

[rkn]

Right, that's what it looks like to me too. Crucially, the rule about one allowed defensive move says that you must always leave room for the other car if they're along side you. i.e. you can't ram them into the wall.

The only reason Perez ends up being there is he has completely outbraked himself from a long, long way back. When Raikkonen positions himself in the braking zone Perez is nowhere near.

Again, I fundamentally disagree that Perez has outbraked himself. If he had outbraked himself, there would be locked wheels, smoke, a lose back end, and Raikkonen calmly letting him sail right on by and miss the corner.

None of these things happened.

Perez had not outbraked himself, Raikkonnen knew this, and moved to defend his position. In making that move, he did not leave enough space.

You have to consider that Perez braked too late to make the corner, had he not contacted with Kimi he would have been forced to cut the chicane. When Kimi checked his mirror, Perez was to far behind to make a move, thus Kimi continued on the normal racing line. Perez is young driver, and he will learn from this, it was his fault. I respect his aggressiveness especially when it comes to not being Button's pushover.

[beelsebob]

Again, I fundamentally disagree that Perez has outbraked himself. If he had outbraked himself, there would be locked wheels, smoke, a lose back end, and Raikkonen calmly letting him sail right on by and miss the corner.

None of these things happened.

Perez had not outbraked himself, Raikkonnen knew this, and moved to defend his position. In making that move, he did not leave enough space.

You have to consider that Perez braked too late to make the corner, had he not contacted with Kimi he would have been forced to cut the chicane.

What evidence do you have to support this hypothesis?

Note – Kimi certainly did not believe this to be the case – if he had, he would not have moved to defend.

When Kimi checked his mirror, Perez was to far behind to make a move, thus Kimi continued on the normal racing line.

Except, as we see above, he did not continue on the normal racing line – he cut across the track to defend.

[munudeges]

The point that turbof1 is making is that you can't make a decission on an individual incident based on evidence associated with a bunch of previous incidents.

It's called correlation.

Suppose I go out and stab 5 people. I'm tried and convicted of these offences. A month later, there's a stabbing in my neighbourhood, and I was out at the time... Am I magically guilty?

You're certainly going to be questioned and your movements asked about, let's put it that way.

Shut up now please.

[zeph]

While I agree that Perez was a bit of a lose cannon today, that does not change the fact that in this incident Kimi was the one who moved across and caused a collision.

We will have to agree to disagree. I see nothing wrong with Raikkonen's move, looks like a perfectly legitimate defensive move to me, and Perez should have known better than to try that. I think his successful (....) moves on Button and Alonso triggered an endorphin rush and the subsequent elation caused a temporary lapse of reason.

He braked way too late and I just don't see how he ever was going to make that move stick.

[beelsebob]

While I agree that Perez was a bit of a lose cannon today, that does not change the fact that in this incident Kimi was the one who moved across and caused a collision.

We will have to agree to disagree. I see nothing wrong with Raikkonen's move, looks like a perfectly legitimate defensive move to me, and Perez should have known better than to try that. I think his successful (....) moves on Button and Alonso triggered an endorphin rush and the subsequent elation caused a temporary lapse of reason.

He braked way too late and I just don't see how he ever was going to make that move stick.

Again, if this is the case, then the correct response from Kimi would be simply to let him sail straight on by, miss the chicaine, and then claim the position back.

[turbof1]

It's called correlation.

Then please do a significance test?

Perez is an agressive driver, no doubt about that. However, decision making about a certain moment should never involve previous moments. If you want to include those, the topic should shift from that one moment to his complete race.

Just to be clear, I am not backing any one of you. For me this is just a case where neither driver is at fault. It's just one of those accidents only possible on a circuit like Monaco. However, I do not believe Perez outbraked himself. He really went for the hole.

[beelsebob]

It's called correlation.

Then please do a significance test?

Perez is an agressive driver, no doubt about that. However, decision making about a certain moment should never involve previous moments. If you want to include those, the topic should shift from that one moment to his complete race.

Indeed, and I would agree in general that Perez had a messy race.

As you're rightly pointing out, that's not the same as being at fault against Kimi though.

[munudeges]

Again, I fundamentally disagree that Perez has outbraked himself. If he had outbraked himself, there would be locked wheels, smoke, a lose back end, and Raikkonen calmly letting him sail right on by and miss the corner.

My last parting contribution to this idiotic discussion is that from previous moves you can clearly see he doesn't want to make the corner. He actually tells us his thinking in his post-race interview. He figures that he can outbrake himself, force his opponent to cut the chicane and get some joy from it. The problem with his move on Raikkonen is he makes it much further back but it was clearly an accident waiting to happen.

While Raikkonen is in the braking zone Perez is firmly behind and then moves across the track to try and dive down the inside. It's hilarious:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMsmxk9M3Ss#t=44s

[zeph]

While I agree that Perez was a bit of a lose cannon today, that does not change the fact that in this incident Kimi was the one who moved across and caused a collision.

We will have to agree to disagree. I see nothing wrong with Raikkonen's move, looks like a perfectly legitimate defensive move to me, and Perez should have known better than to try that. I think his successful (....) moves on Button and Alonso triggered an endorphin rush and the subsequent elation caused a temporary lapse of reason.

He braked way too late and I just don't see how he ever was going to make that move stick.

Again, if this is the case, then the correct response from Kimi would be simply to let him sail straight on by, miss the chicaine, and then claim the position back.

And yet Raikkonen defended. Legally. Nothing wrong with that move. That is my only point.

[Tim.Wright]

In my opinion, this supid rule of leaving a gap is to blame. In no racing other series in the world is it acceptable to put 20cm of your car up the inside of another and claim you have track position.

[andartop]

In my opinion, this supid rule of leaving a gap is to blame. In no racing other series in the world is it acceptable to put 20cm of your car up the inside of another and claim you have track position.

=D>

[beelsebob]

Again, I fundamentally disagree that Perez has outbraked himself. If he had outbraked himself, there would be locked wheels, smoke, a lose back end, and Raikkonen calmly letting him sail right on by and miss the corner.

My last parting contribution to this idiotic discussion is that from previous moves you can clearly see he doesn't want to make the corner. He actually tells us his thinking in his post-race interview. He figures that he can outbrake himself, force his opponent to cut the chicane and get some joy from it. The problem with his move on Raikkonen is he makes it much further back but it was clearly an accident waiting to happen.

Again, if you base this on past evidence, then Kimi can make the exact same inference. He can decide "Perez is clearly not going to make the corner", allow him to sail straight on by, through the chicaine, and then claim the place back. Clearly Kimi thinks that Perez has not outbraked himself this time around.

While Raikkonen is in the braking zone Perez is firmly behind and then moves across the track to try and dive down the inside. It's hilarious:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMsmxk9M3Ss#t=44s

Is he alongside there? Of course he isn't.

Holy crap, it's almost like you have to move to the inside to attempt to overtake someone? I never realised this, I thought you just carried on in a straight line! Maybe that's what grosjean's being doing wrong all this time!

He's only anywhere near Raikkonen deep into braking once the collision is inevitable

Eh, no – he's plenty near enough that Kimi decides he needs to defend right at the start of the braking zone. You realise they start breaking well after they come over the crest, right? Kimi moves to the left, right at the start of the braking zone, at a point at which Perez has already commited to the inside, and is already braking for the corner. Moving across the track, off line, at that time can only have one result.

and some people think Raikkonen should be telepathic and avoid this? Lunacy. But, what can one expect here?

No one expects Raikkonen to be telepathic – just process the information he has available to him. He clearly knows Checo is there – if he didn't, he wouldn't be moving across the track. He clearly knows that they're both braking hard for the corner, and that Checo can't magically brake harder, or he'll lock up. He clearly knows where the edge of the track is, and that he needs to leave enough space for Checo to exist in. With all this knowledge at his disposal, the correct decission would be to follow a line that leaves at least one car width to the inside of the corner, and to be a bit careful on turn in, because there's likely to be a fast moving McLaren there, if Checo has once again outbraked himself. Having been careful on turn in, two things can happen, either 1) checo makes the corner, and overtakes him (which is a fair, legitimate overtaking maneuver), or 2) checo sails right past him, and passes him by driving through the chicaine. In the latter case, he can simply reclaim the position. In the former case, it's all fair racing, and checo deserves the position.

Kimi instead, with not an ounce of thought, simply closes the door while checo is along side him.

[beelsebob]

And yet Raikkonen defended. Legally. Nothing wrong with that move. That is my only point.

Again, there's nothing legal about leaving so little room that you hit your opponent. The correct thing for Kimi to do was to leave enough space for checo, and to hover on the turn in point so that he didn't turn into Checo's side.