2014 Engine yin yang

[xpensive]

...
But as I said I'm quite happy to reconsider as soon as substantial evidence of inaccuracy is posted. I just don't want to join the speculation.

Sometimes WB, it's not really necessary to place your foot deep into manure to know that you are on a horse-trail.

When you realize how much difference a miniscule deviation in fuel flow will mean in terms of power for the so strictly regulated engines, next to spec actually, it all of a sudden becomes mission impossible to keep a level field.

When a few hidden cc's of fuel will mean helluva lot more than any DRS.

[bonjon1979]

I may be looking at this far too simplistically but doesn't the overall restriction on the amount of fuel you're allowed for each race prevent too much abuse of the fuel flow issue. If you're only allowed 100kg for the entire race then that'll determine the rate of the fuel flow rather than anything else? A team may find a work around to get more fuel into the engine but that'll mean they run out of fuel quicker or need to go into fuel saving mode sooner.

You ARE looking at this too simplistic. The maximum fuel limit of 100kg applies for every track. At some fuel hungry tracks you will use allmost every kg of fuel. But some of the tracks where you typically doesn't use as much fuel you would have some fuel to spare to create more horsepower if you find a way to do so.

Right, I just thought that things will be very tight next year considering they've only got two/thirds of the amount of fuel they have now.

[hollus]

Unless I am mistaken, those 100Kg are measured by the flow meter, so if you can trick it in term of instant fuel flow, you also get to trick it in terms of total fuel over the race.

[xpensive]

Just like "Look, I see a bird!" perhaps?

[Holm86]

Unless I am mistaken, those 100Kg are measured by the flow meter, so if you can trick it in term of instant fuel flow, you also get to trick it in term of total fuel over the race.

I would also guess that the 100kg are measured by the flow meter. But I am unsure of the fuelcell is specified dimension wise?? But that would be useless as fuel volume changes with temperature at the same weight. Perhaps each driver are given 100kg's of fuel specified by the FIA before each race?? IDK.

Otherwise you would be able to use more than the 100kg's per race if you can fool the flow meter.

EDIT:
Now that i think of it the idea wasnt to fool the flow meter itself. It was to accumulate fuel after the fuel flow meter.

As you dont run the entire track at wide open throttle the idea was to accumulate fuel when off throttle. Still not excessing the maximum fuel rate og 100kg/h. So you wouldnt use more than the 100kg's of fuel.

[Holm86]

I may be looking at this far too simplistically but doesn't the overall restriction on the amount of fuel you're allowed for each race prevent too much abuse of the fuel flow issue. If you're only allowed 100kg for the entire race then that'll determine the rate of the fuel flow rather than anything else? A team may find a work around to get more fuel into the engine but that'll mean they run out of fuel quicker or need to go into fuel saving mode sooner.

You ARE looking at this too simplistic. The maximum fuel limit of 100kg applies for every track. At some fuel hungry tracks you will use allmost every kg of fuel. But some of the tracks where you typically doesn't use as much fuel you would have some fuel to spare to create more horsepower if you find a way to do so.

Right, I just thought that things will be very tight next year considering they've only got two/thirds of the amount of fuel they have now.

Yes but the ICE engines of next year are more efficient than those of today. And remember that you get a lot more energy from the ERS next year as well. I do believe that at some of the more fuel hungry tracks teams wont run at full power all the time.

[bonjon1979]

Unless I am mistaken, those 100Kg are measured by the flow meter, so if you can trick it in term of instant fuel flow, you also get to trick it in term of total fuel over the race.

I would also guess that the 100kg are measured by the flow meter. But I am unsure of the fuelcell is specified dimension wise?? But that would be useless as fuel volume changes with temperature at the same weight. Perhaps each driver are given 100kg's of fuel specified by the FIA before each race?? IDK.

Otherwise you would be able to use more than the 100kg's per race if you can fool the flow meter.

This is an interesting point, isn't it. Correct me if I'm wrong but won't this be the first time that F1 cars are restricted to a certain weight of fuel? Maybe they'll weigh them before the gp? Maybe we'll see teams disqualified post race because the flow meter records more than 100 kg of fuel used in the race.

[langwadt]

Unless I am mistaken, those 100Kg are measured by the flow meter, so if you can trick it in term of instant fuel flow, you also get to trick it in term of total fuel over the race.

I would also guess that the 100kg are measured by the flow meter. But I am unsure of the fuelcell is specified dimension wise?? But that would be useless as fuel volume changes with temperature at the same weight. Perhaps each driver are given 100kg's of fuel specified by the FIA before each race?? IDK.

Otherwise you would be able to use more than the 100kg's per race if you can fool the flow meter.

This is an interesting point, isn't it. Correct me if I'm wrong but won't this be the first time that F1 cars are restricted to a certain weight of fuel? Maybe they'll weigh them before the gp? Maybe we'll see teams disqualified post race because the flow meter records more than 100 kg of fuel used in the race.

sometime in the mid 80's the tank size was limited to something like 220liters

[WhiteBlue]

Very interesting debate. I wonder how relevant it will be once the season starts. My money is on "soon to be forgotten".
And there are technical reasons why I think that way.

1. I believe that the low pressure measurement will be accurate to the level indicated by the manufacturer. The measuring principle makes that very likely.

2. Manipulations behind the measuring device are prohibited by strong prohibitions in the regulations and by the option to use the SECU data of the injectors to double check.

[rjsa]

To believe that in every stance discussed - being it fuel energy content or now total fuel mass control - the rules have everything covered and nothing was left for grabs in such a huge change.

I find the naiveté amusing.

[Richard]

Don't forget the young yang bit in the title, this thread isn't meant to be taken too seriously.

[xpensive]

At least I'm old enough to recall that bavarian engine-builder, which in 1983 shocked the world with its' toluene-slime for fuel?

[timbo]

At least I'm old enough to recall that bavarian engine-builder, which in 1983 shocked the world with its' toluene-slime for fuel?

Right now composition is much tighter regulated. The scope for "funny" stuff is greatly reduced.

[Tommy Cookers]

the 83 fuel met the race-legal RON of 102 (the same as the best road fuel)
at rich mixtures it behaves much better in a supercharged engine, but RON does not see this

the 2014 fuel has no max ON limit, so it's nothing like road fuel
though its min ON must be 87, so it can't be diesel (because that would be bad ?)
there's around 1000 different constituents in road fuel, but nothing says how much of each must be used
many of the lesser constituents have not even now been isolated and tested
the lesser constituents are present because it's pointless and prohibitively expensive to remove them
they are the many isomers of the major constituents (about 5-30 isomers for each depending on their molecular size)
eg iso-octane is 100 octane, normal octane is minus 12 octane
normal heptane is 0 octane, triptane is an isomer of normal heptane but is 112 octane

and there is no cost limit for 2014 F1 fuel
some of these lesser constituents are obtainable from plant sources
5.7% biofuel content is mandated, this could be from eg cottonseed which yields a fuel vastly better than bioethanol
as long as the FIA accepted that there was an commercial intent in the product

[xpensive]

Very well xplained TC, Shell could literally put together Alonso's 2014 fuel molecule per molecule if they wanted.

http://www.shell.com/global/aboutshell/ ... ement.html

Some 50 billion dollar annual turnover.

Think about it.