2014 ERS Settings/Maps

[erikhfp]

Would it theoretically be legal if you somehow have the ECU detect that you are attempting an overtake and that the maximum ERS energy should be sent to the wheels? They have a large amount of sensors sending information back to the pits so they would have been able to check if the car shows any signs that the driver is trying to overtake another car and this would technically not be a driver actuated system.

[SectorOne]

I believe they are not allowed to send anything back to the car. All the telemetry the driver sees is taken directly from the ECU i think.

Someone correct me if i´m wrong.

[erikhfp]

I believe they are not allowed to send anything back to the car. All the telemetry the driver sees is taken directly from the ECU i think.

Someone correct me if i´m wrong.

I apologize, I think I did not phrase my question clearly. What I meant with the the fact that the teams have a lot of sensors on board the car was that if there was a unique event that happens when a driver wants to pass another on track and that, that event is programmed into the ECU that will then enable maximum ERS in this event. I though a bit about what the sensors might show and I cannot think of something that would make it unique to any other type of driving event during a lap but I am still curious to find out if you would then theoretically be able to do this if there is a unique event when a driver is trying to pass another.

[tanmay324]

IMO there will be a dial to select the map for ERS and it will be demanded by the pedal. So while overtaking the driver can select the 120kW mode.

[erikhfp]

IMO there will be a dial to select the map for ERS and it will be demanded by the pedal. So while overtaking the driver can select the 120kW mode.

Won't that then count as a driver activated switch?

[Manoah2u]

I believe they are not allowed to send anything back to the car. All the telemetry the driver sees is taken directly from the ECU i think.

Someone correct me if i´m wrong.

I apologize, I think I did not phrase my question clearly. What I meant with the the fact that the teams have a lot of sensors on board the car was that if there was a unique event that happens when a driver wants to pass another on track and that, that event is programmed into the ECU that will then enable maximum ERS in this event. I though a bit about what the sensors might show and I cannot think of something that would make it unique to any other type of driving event during a lap but I am still curious to find out if you would then theoretically be able to do this if there is a unique event when a driver is trying to pass another.

i think sensors might detect for example that a driver is driving close to the car in front due to the effects of dirty air. i'm sure this effect is measurable, especially when a car reaches the 'slipstream'. air sensors might be able to sense this. paired with the normal effect of raising engine temperatures due to less cooling, you already have a certain amount of data that could 'warn' the system that it is about to engage in an overtaking mode.
a sudden 'loss' of data [loss of slipstream, or the sudden appearing of 'normal' airflow in clean air] might then be the data that it harvests to switch into FULL ERS.

there could be something there, i'd doubt the ECU however is programmable that way.

but yes, such an event should be measurable. quite easy actually. you could simply get a car on track with a certain setting and do some runs and collect the data [record].
then you repeat the exact same but let the driver drive very close to another car [your teammate for example]. collect all the data [record].
and compare. since you know the exact moments when you get behind or pass your teammate with the same settings, you have data that is recognisable as this actual thing.

this is the data you would be willing to put into use [take advantage of]. question is however; to which degree is this controllable. for example, in the first few laps you are around a lot of cars. if the sensors registrate similar behavior, then you could have unwanted moments of ERS usage.
obviously that is controllable to a certain degree for example when you are in lap 5 for example [use the sensors of amount of fuel present].

all you have to do is create a program perimiter that will switch on/off the ERS to your liking.
but that's where the problem lies; i'd doubt you could implement this switch/command into the [standard] ECU.
if not possibile, you'd have to add an extra computer. is that legal? i don't know.

[tanmay324]

Won't that then count as a driver activated switch?

The dial will only select the mode. I don't think it can count as activation. The actual activation will be on pedal itself.

I don't know the exact regulation but if it says it can only be activated by the pedal, then you are within the rules.

[erikhfp]

I believe they are not allowed to send anything back to the car. All the telemetry the driver sees is taken directly from the ECU i think.

Someone correct me if i´m wrong.

I apologize, I think I did not phrase my question clearly. What I meant with the the fact that the teams have a lot of sensors on board the car was that if there was a unique event that happens when a driver wants to pass another on track and that, that event is programmed into the ECU that will then enable maximum ERS in this event. I though a bit about what the sensors might show and I cannot think of something that would make it unique to any other type of driving event during a lap but I am still curious to find out if you would then theoretically be able to do this if there is a unique event when a driver is trying to pass another.

i think sensors might detect for example that a driver is driving close to the car in front due to the effects of dirty air. i'm sure this effect is measurable, especially when a car reaches the 'slipstream'. air sensors might be able to sense this. paired with the normal effect of raising engine temperatures due to less cooling, you already have a certain amount of data that could 'warn' the system that it is about to engage in an overtaking mode.
a sudden 'loss' of data [loss of slipstream, or the sudden appearing of 'normal' airflow in clean air] might then be the data that it harvests to switch into FULL ERS.

there could be something there, i'd doubt the ECU however is programmable that way.

but yes, such an event should be measurable. quite easy actually. you could simply get a car on track with a certain setting and do some runs and collect the data [record].
then you repeat the exact same but let the driver drive very close to another car [your teammate for example]. collect all the data [record].
and compare. since you know the exact moments when you get behind or pass your teammate with the same settings, you have data that is recognisable as this actual thing.

this is the data you would be willing to put into use [take advantage of]. question is however; to which degree is this controllable. for example, in the first few laps you are around a lot of cars. if the sensors registrate similar behavior, then you could have unwanted moments of ERS usage.
obviously that is controllable to a certain degree for example when you are in lap 5 for example [use the sensors of amount of fuel present].

all you have to do is create a program perimiter that will switch on/off the ERS to your liking.
but that's where the problem lies; i'd doubt you could implement this switch/command into the [standard] ECU.
if not possibile, you'd have to add an extra computer. is that legal? i don't know.

That is true but it is most probably not the most efficient area to use the ERS if you are in another cars slipstream as most areas on track where you get a nice slipstream is also where they have DRS zones. The ideal would probably have been if you could use the ERS when exiting a corner very close to the driver in fornt of you

[tuj]

You can only have 1 ERS pedal map per type of tyres as per the rules. 5.5.3. The torque demand map must be monotonically increasing for any increase in accelerator pedal position (5.5.4). The power unit must meet the torque demanded by the driver within X ms (where X is yet to be determined in my copy of the regs).

[kalinka]

It would mean that you can't adjust the ERS settings behind safety car to reduce fuel consumption? I think this rule is just for the pedal map, but you can have different levels of ERS power with the same pedal map...or not ??? With the ERS settings switch you will adjust the harvesting level/algorytm of the ERS, but not the pedal map. Confused again

[erikhfp]

I had a quick look through article 8 of the 2014 regulations and it appears the FIA closely monitors what the ECU and other processors do on the car so it most probably would not be legal if sensors were to pick up when a driver wants to attempt an overtake.

But with the way F1 is continuing you could probably just use the wet weather engine map setting as a pass mode seeing as when there is more than a few drops of water on the track

[Ferraripilot]

Can the system not be mapped to operate entirely on a sliding scale based on traction? I do not believe there are rules that specific with regards to the electric motors and their ability to provide power other than specifying the amount of maximum power am I right?

I should add that I somewhat understand the rule as is stated above, but how is the Fia going to check this? Reminds me of the whole flexi wing fiasco a couple years ago, the wing clearly flexed but the rule intended to check flex was insufficient.

[erikhfp]

Can the system not be mapped to operate entirely on a sliding scale based on traction? I do not believe there are rules that specific with regards to the electric motors and their ability to provide power other than specifying the amount of maximum power am I right?

I should add that I somewhat understand the rule as is stated above, but how is the Fia going to check this? Reminds me of the whole flexi wing fiasco a couple years ago, the wing clearly flexed but the rule intended to check flex was insufficient.

I think the easiest would be to ask the teams about their processors different inputs and then hook up a simulator for those inputs and then analyze the outputs that would be sent to different parts of the car, in this case the ERS system. The simulator would probably just have to run the telemetry of a certain track and this would most likely give a result in terms of complying with the regulations. I am however not sure if this would be the way the FIA will approach this or if they have another way of testing the engine maps.

[tuj]

Can the system not be mapped to operate entirely on a sliding scale based on traction?

No, closed-loop tc not permitted. Now I venture some team is going to find a way around this. I personally think RBR was using the alternator for this purposes (getting a proxy for wheel speed signals), so it will be interesting....

[Ferraripilot]

Now I venture some team is going to find a way around this. ...

+1 I agree that could happen. How are the Fia going to check those subsystems? They've opened up a very difficult set of rules to create tests for. They may have to outsource testing to google's software engineers