Carbon Block?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Carbon Block?

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The carbon engine If allowed, will still fit the bill of minium weight and COG rules if you put your engine ballast in the right locations. E.G the boss of the output shaft, and anywhere along the min cog plane. Your radius of gyration will be significantly reduced while keeping a very high level of stiffness.

The V8 engine is already the second stiffest component of modern F1 cars, really needs no additional stiffening (especially in light of the new V6's) and so I see a CFRP block's purpose as a way to enhance balance and handling.
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riff_raff
riff_raff
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Re: Lightweight Engine Uses Carbon Fiber Composite

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kutch wrote:http://www.tohotenaxamerica.com/


Composite Castings LLC (CC) announces the launch of its new, lightweight, carbon fiber composite, 4-cylinder engine blocks. This novel engine block design was developed by Matti Holtzberg, President and founder of Composite Castings, based in West Palm Beach, Florida, USA. Extensive research resulted in the selection of Toho Tenax America's Tenax® brand carbon fiber as the reinforcement for the base epoxy resin.

The resulting high performance compound is molded into the finished engine block profile using CC.s proprietary molding process (patented and patent pending) that uses low cost tooling and provides for faster cycle times compared to conventional CFRP molding methods.

The new engine blocks are 45-50% lighter in weight than a comparable aluminum block. The weight saving is a significant competitive advantage in the performance engine business and will attract a lot of interest from the worldwide automotive industry where weight is so critical, particularly in hybrid cars. A composite block is cast to a net shape, which: eliminates secondary machining; significantly reduces NVH due to the relationship between fiber and resin; does not corrode; and represents a huge reduction in its carbon footprint because there is no metal to melt.

Also, in comparison to die casting, the tool cost is 50% less and the tool life is 5-10 times greater. The first block that CC is casting for the performance engine market is an after-market specialty engine, which can be an alternate to the popular Ford Duratec/Mazda MZR inline 4. The carbon fiber composite block weighs 20# (9.1 kilos) LESS than the stock alloy block.

Looking further forward, an entire range of 4- and 8- cylinder engine blocks is planned for motorsports as well as OEM automotive, truck and marine applications.
kutch,

That engine block is not really a "carbon fiber" block. It would be more accurate to characterize it as a carbon fiber-filled epoxy resin block. I believe the carbon fibers used are very short and discontinuous. They simply provide improved creep strength for the epoxy resin matrix.

Aluminum F1 engine blocks are incredibly light and stiff. An F1 engine block made using this particular composite construction would not be much lighter, and possibly even less stiff in some respects, since the matrix is still epoxy resin.

riff_raff
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Edis
Edis
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Re: Lightweight Engine Uses Carbon Fiber Composite

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riff_raff wrote:
kutch wrote:http://www.tohotenaxamerica.com/


Composite Castings LLC (CC) announces the launch of its new, lightweight, carbon fiber composite, 4-cylinder engine blocks. This novel engine block design was developed by Matti Holtzberg, President and founder of Composite Castings, based in West Palm Beach, Florida, USA. Extensive research resulted in the selection of Toho Tenax America's Tenax® brand carbon fiber as the reinforcement for the base epoxy resin.

The resulting high performance compound is molded into the finished engine block profile using CC.s proprietary molding process (patented and patent pending) that uses low cost tooling and provides for faster cycle times compared to conventional CFRP molding methods.

The new engine blocks are 45-50% lighter in weight than a comparable aluminum block. The weight saving is a significant competitive advantage in the performance engine business and will attract a lot of interest from the worldwide automotive industry where weight is so critical, particularly in hybrid cars. A composite block is cast to a net shape, which: eliminates secondary machining; significantly reduces NVH due to the relationship between fiber and resin; does not corrode; and represents a huge reduction in its carbon footprint because there is no metal to melt.

Also, in comparison to die casting, the tool cost is 50% less and the tool life is 5-10 times greater. The first block that CC is casting for the performance engine market is an after-market specialty engine, which can be an alternate to the popular Ford Duratec/Mazda MZR inline 4. The carbon fiber composite block weighs 20# (9.1 kilos) LESS than the stock alloy block.

Looking further forward, an entire range of 4- and 8- cylinder engine blocks is planned for motorsports as well as OEM automotive, truck and marine applications.
kutch,

That engine block is not really a "carbon fiber" block. It would be more accurate to characterize it as a carbon fiber-filled epoxy resin block. I believe the carbon fibers used are very short and discontinuous. They simply provide improved creep strength for the epoxy resin matrix.

Aluminum F1 engine blocks are incredibly light and stiff. An F1 engine block made using this particular composite construction would not be much lighter, and possibly even less stiff in some respects, since the matrix is still epoxy resin.

riff_raff
CF reinforced high temperature polymers like polyetheretherketone and polyamide-imide can be useful for some components in engines where the part have to have a large volume due to geometric dimensions, but I would not chose such a material for an engine block where strength and stiffness is critical. CF reinfored PEEK or PAI can withstand temperatures up to about 250-275 degC and can handle engine oil, but their strengh is just about 100-200 MPa at room temperature and their stiffness is just 10-20 GPa. A cast aluminium alloy like 319 T5 (common in engine blocks) is twice the density, but it's stiffness is four to eight times better, and it's strength is about 200 MPa (77 MPa at 10^8 cycles). At about 100-150 degC I think aluminum comes out even better, and it is far far cheaper than the reinforced polymers. Compacted graphite iron at about 450 MPa is another option to aluminum suitable for production blocks (about 2.5 times the density and strength of aluminum but fatigue strength is much better).

If an engine block should be made out of a composite material I would rather look into Al/SiC. Silicon carbide will boost aluminums strength and stiffness (particulary its stiffness) without increasing its density, the finished block would also conduct heat well and it will offer a good wear resistance. With enough SiC it's probably possible to run the pistons directly in the block which will give a stiff and compact block.

For racing engines direct metal laser sintering could offer an interresting choice for engine blocks and cylinder heads. Aluminum alloys, titanium alloys, maraging steel, high temperature nickel and cobalt alloys and others can be formed into very complex parts with very thin walls if required. Single parts or small series can be made fast without high tool costs. Perhaps one possebility to make a composite block is to make a 'skeleton' with cylinders and main bearings by direct metal laser sintering in for instance titanium and the outer part of the block like the crankcase in CFRP, similar to BMW's Al/Mg composite block.

riff_raff
riff_raff
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Re: Carbon Block?

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Edis,

I agree that only thermoplastics (polyimide/polyamides) or BMI (bismaleimide) would provide suitable Tg and creep strength for use in a cylinder block. I also agree that a more practical approach for production blocks is the Al/Mg composite used by BMW.

MMC's like Al/SiC are useful for cylinder liners. But MMC's are a bear to machine due to the carbide whiskers. MMC's must be machined by grinding or using diamond tooling.

A better material for cylinder liners is FRA: http://tritonsys.com/products/bearingliners.html It is light, strong, high modulus, highly wear resistant, has good thermal conductivity, has good corrosion resistance, and machines readily.

riff_raff
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A: Start with a large one!"

Phoenix882
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Re: Carbon Block?

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Sorry for reviving this old post and I know this is going to derive a bit from the F1 scene but I'll ask anyways.

You guys mentioned the problems with piston driven engines, would it maybe work on a rotary ?
Since the pressure and heat rotate the engine's rotors wouldn't the problem be solved with such a setup ?

PhillipM
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Re: Carbon Block?

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It'd be worse, one side of the engine is permanently hot.

PVDL
PVDL
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Re: Carbon Block?

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The resin used in an engine block/head would need to be phenolic based as Matti Holtzberg? has already shown to work (though certainly not at F1 like power levels). This type of epoxy has better strength characteristics at high heat. Oh, and he did cast in aluminum inserts for the combustion chambers and used liners. he also had some success using valves in his engine of a similar material to the block/head :shock:

Cheers, Paul

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Re: Carbon Block?

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it's all fun and games. if it were viable or reasonable to make a carbon block, it would have been done ages ago.

http://www.worldcarfans.com/11401276933 ... rbo-engine

if you can get 400bhp from a 40kgs 'conventional' engine, there is simply no way anybody is gonna invest time and research in a carbon engine - even if, for some reason, it would be possible.

apart from that, petrol engines don't have the future anymore. it's amazing how far they've gone in reliability and getting so much power out such small displacements with reliable turbo's, but the near future is all hybrid, and then gradually it will go full electric. unfortunately, the same may be expected for formula 1.

carbon fiber probably will have a strong future in electrical engine possibilities. for example, the heaviest parts and thus biggest downside of electric cars are the batteries. batteries are advancing in energy lifespan, but there's a whole lot to be done on saving weight. the material used to store energy in the batteries [acid in the most common form] probably will be the reason that carbon has not been used in this department, but it's there where research should be done.

anyway, i'm wayy offtopic here though.

this may prove an interesting read

http://www.thecarbonfiberjournal.com/?p=770
http://blog.caranddriver.com/is-this-th ... ine-block/
http://thekneeslider.com/plastic-engine ... nterested/

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... =4&t=14632
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Phoenix882
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Re: Carbon Block?

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Thanks for the links Manoah2u !

So I guess it is possible as long as you keep key parts metallic.

As having less weight saves fuel, maybe there is a future for it afterall.

Following your off-topic, I'd prefer to see hydrogen combustion engines than having electric cars with no sound.

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Re: Carbon Block?

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Phoenix882 wrote: Following your off-topic, I'd prefer to see hydrogen combustion engines than having electric cars with no sound.
there's no debate there. the character and sound of combustion engines will always win compared to electric engines.

unfortunately, the future is heading in another direction. i don't know if F1 will embrace diesel in the future, to keep combustion engines as long as possible in the run - but i'm afraid somewhere in the future they'll disappear.

it's possible to run combustion engines on gas, vegetable oil, etc. hell, do some research and you'll find you can run [old]
diesel engines on used restaurant oil. and yes, hydrogen should be a possibilty too.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

PVDL
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Re: Carbon Block?

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Manoah2u wrote: gradually it will go full electric.

I beg to differ. The infrastructure required to supply a billion cars with electricity is a very long way off.

Cheers, Paul

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SectorOne
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Re: Carbon Block?

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"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

Manoah2u
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Re: Carbon Block?

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PVDL wrote:
Manoah2u wrote: gradually it will go full electric.

I beg to differ. The infrastructure required to supply a billion cars with electricity is a very long way off.

Cheers, Paul
no it isn't.

i said gradually. not in an intance. market is going to change and develop into electrical car industry.
that means suppliers we have now for petrol cars are going to move into electric industry - thus providing supply.
china is one country that has enough potential to supply materials needed.

batteries are the biggest issue in this department. not even looking in lifespan and efficiency at this moment, the
production of working batteries [remember, we're not talking alkaline or duracell aa-batteries here] is an area of
development. I'm sure that's where the big Oil concerns are eager to be in control of.

the infrastructure isn't off that much, everywhere electric charge stations are popping up, slowly fast-charge stations are
popping up at fuel stations. There is a swift development in 'remote charging' with floor pads, charging cars 'remotely' from the floor - these pads can be easily sunk into parking spots and parking lots.

all it takes is demand. There isn't enough demand at this moment for these technologies, hence there isn't the supply provided. But in due time, the automobile industry is going to move into a direction where the demand for electric power supply wil grow and then supply will come because the industry will respond to the demand.

anyway, way offtopic here.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

PVDL
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Re: Carbon Block?

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I think you are really missing the point. Your house may use 5-10Kw per day. Each car would probably use 50 to 100Kw per day in normal short distance commute. This is far, far more electricity than the current number of generating power plants can provide. When was the last time you saw a new power station being built? Think about how much that would cost, and obviously the cost is handed down to the consumer...

PhillipM
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Re: Carbon Block?

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PVDL wrote:I think you are really missing the point. Your house may use 5-10Kw per day. Each car would probably use 50 to 100Kw per day in normal short distance commute. This is far, far more electricity than the current number of generating power plants can provide. When was the last time you saw a new power station being built? Think about how much that would cost, and obviously the cost is handed down to the consumer...
Not only that, but most cars will all be being used at similar times, and therefore be charged at similar times - the peak demand would be astonishing - over here we have energy dumps that are timed just to release as the adverts for popular TV programs come on because they know a million people will go and boil the kettle - imagine 20 million people getting home from work and plugging their charging stations in!