Electronic brake control in 2014

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Electronic brake control in 2014

Post

dren wrote:This electronic system will try to keep the rear braking the same no matter how much KERS harvesting is going on. Brake pedal position will call for a certain negative torque and the computer will figure out how it wants to achieve that between the KERS and hydraulic actuators. I would not be surprised if this will have to be mapped and submitted just like the throttle position vs power unit torque demand.
In that case you would have to have a brake pedal that does two things at the same time, first produce the brake pressure for the hydraulic circuit and second generate a signal that is send to the electronics to tell the system the brake torque demand. Perhaps that could be done by measuring the braking pressure.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

User avatar
dren
227
Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 14:14

Re: Electronic brake control in 2014

Post

Yes, that's what I was thinking. It would be easier to have the entire system brake by wire, but the way the rules read it just sounds like the rear will be. The pedal will likely create the front and rear hydraulic pressures, there will be some sort of solenoid proportioning valve at the rear that works in conjunction with the brake pedal sensor and KERS. The front to rear bias will still be mechanically controlled.
Honda!

timbo
timbo
113
Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Electronic brake control in 2014

Post

dren wrote:The front to rear bias will still be mechanically controlled.
I think that unless that is explicitly specified, the system that controls rear brakes can affect effective biasing dynamically.

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: Electronic brake control in 2014

Post

So the brake pedal will become a traction limiting control?

Blanchimont
Blanchimont
214
Joined: 09 Nov 2012, 23:47

Re: Electronic brake control in 2014

Post

The 2014 regulations were updated today!
11.1.3 Any powered device, other than the system referred to in Article 11.7, which is capable of altering the configuration or affecting the performance of any part of the brake system is forbidden.

11.1.4 Any change to, or modulation of, the brake system whilst the car is moving must be made by the driver's direct physical input or by the system referred to in Article 11.7, and may not be pre-set.
11.7 Rear brake control system :
The pressure in the rear braking circuit may be provided by a powered control system provided that :
a) The driver brake pedal is connected to a hydraulic master cylinder that generates a pressure source that can be applied to the rear braking circuit if the powered system is disabled.
b) The powered system is controlled by the control electronics described in Article 8.2.
Dear FIA, if you read this, please pm me for a redesign of the Technical Regulations to avoid finger nose shapes for 2016! :-)

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: Electronic brake control in 2014

Post

Yep a poered system capable of acting as a traction limiting device.
They should think again.

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Electronic brake control in 2014

Post

Holm68 was right on this item.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

User avatar
Holm86
249
Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 03:37
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Electronic brake control in 2014

Post

It's 86 :wink: Not that old :lol:

But I don't think I was totally correct. As I read this it means that brakes can be brake-by-wire. Just as long as there is a hydraulic system as back-up.

User avatar
techF1LES
176
Joined: 25 Mar 2012, 22:02
Location: Slovakia

Re: Electronic brake control in 2014

Post

There is a discussion concerning so called 'brake-by-wire' system on the Autosport forums, and I found especially interesting comments of user "TC3000" (not sure if he is active also here on F1T). Nevertheless, below are his thoughts on how this braking system would actually work.


Image

When the "brake-by-wire" system activates, they (from what I get out of the interview) will close the Isolation Valve. This will disconnect the rear hydraulic circuit from the driver input (master cylinder) and the "controller" takes over. They would open the Dump Valve.

What is here in this graphic shown as the Accumulator would not only be a passive spring, but a movable piston on the other side of the spring too (a pump), this will give them the option to reduce or increase the pressure in the rear circuit "at will", in their effort to match/mate the two braking torque generating devices (the MGU-K and the rear hydraulic brakes) together, so that they achieve the desired overall torque.

The controller will not only need to balance with the MGU-K, but also still "listen" to what the driver wants, because the driver will keep modulating the pedal to control the front tyres and hold them close to the "lock-up" threshold. The drivers are used to the fact that front and rear act together, being operated by the same pedal. Now, the rear is "disconnected" from his foot, and has an additional link in the "chain of command". This link (the controller) can/will cause some slight delays, and the drivers will need to take this into consideration. Even if everything works "well" (let's not say perfect), it will need a little bit getting used to.

Some will remember all the discussions about Hamilton and his Brembo vs. CI brake feel issues. It's very real, not only for Hamilton. Some drivers are less sensitive to these things than others, but I'm sure every driver will at least notice it. Now, if the "controller" has a "mind of its own", then it becomes even more interesting.


Controller is balancing the braking work between the hydraulic brake circuit and the MGU-K. The controller will and can supply it's own (brake) pressure to do so - just like the pumping unit in an ABS block does - the driver is "disconnected" from this. When they, close the rear circuit, they "cut-off" the "elasticities" (line and caliper expansion and fluid compressibility) of the rear, effectively increasing the stiffness of the total brake system. We talk very small movements here, but the drivers are very sensitive to this.

Under normal conditions, driver presses the pedal, this will generate pressure in the two master cylinders, this pressure is then feed into the front and rear circuits. Before any retardation is developed from the brakes, this pressure needs to build up in the calipers. Along the whole path, are many things which will expand a bit, taking up some fluid volume (the give or slack of the system), you first need to take these things out, before pressure at the caliper rises, then the caliper flexes a bit in it's self etc.

All these small "imperfections" cause a tiny amount of pedal movement, but it makes it also possible and easier for the driver to "modulate" the brakes. The hydraulic circuit acts like a "spring". You have two springs, the front and the rear circuit, now if they "cut/shut off" the rear circuit, they change the spring rate of the complete brake system. The pedal will feel stiffer. And the driver still needs to make tiny adjustments to control the front wheels, but now the overall pedal feel will change depedning on the condition of the rear circuit (if it is connected or if it is disconnected because ERS-K is recouping energy).

RideRate
RideRate
7
Joined: 02 Jun 2009, 19:49

Re: Electronic brake control in 2014

Post

So why not have the isolation valve that when locking out the rear system from the driver also opens up to an accumulator that is set to match the rear brake system's normal compliance, thus keeping the feel at the pedal consistent? I think fixing the 'feel' of braking systems for driver preference is a pretty simple problem as long as you realize that is the problem that needs fixing.

RideRate
RideRate
7
Joined: 02 Jun 2009, 19:49

Re: Electronic brake control in 2014

Post

Having said this it looks as though the system will be allowed to have no hydraulic link direct to the brake pedal under normal operating conditions (ie not failure mode). It will all be under electro-hydraulic control, so done right it will be completely seamless to the driver. This is the optimal way to run the system and I'm glad the rules allow it. I expect it will be a tad interesting as we see how the teams can optimize the system and make it do more than its intended purpose.

User avatar
techF1LES
176
Joined: 25 Mar 2012, 22:02
Location: Slovakia

Re: Electronic brake control in 2014

Post

Excerpt from Autosport magazine article "Secrets of brake-by-wire". Read full analysis with Scarbs' illustrations on pages 26 and 27 in issue #8 20 February 2014.
Gary Anderson wrote:To create this system, the pipe that goes between the rear master cylinder and the ‘T’ piece that separates the fluid flow to each rear caliper is removed. A pressure sensor is fitted to the master cylinder, measuring the pressure the driver is applying to the brake pedal and sending it to the ECU. This can range from 0bar to 100bar.

The ECU will also know what level of energy harvest the driver is requesting under braking to charge the battery. This is signalled via a dial on the steering wheel with approximately 10 positions on it.

These two signals will be combined, and the rear-brake pressure needed to give the front to-rear brake balance requested by the driver will be defined. This pressure will be achieved by opening a hydraulic control valve, letting through high-pressure hydraulic fluid. This valve will be mounted near the rear of the car on the pipework that would normally feed the brake fluid to the rear calipers. On this pipework there will also be a pressure sensor to monitor the newly-requested rear-brake pressure. This hydraulic valve would then shuttle back and forth to maintain the requested rear-brakeline pressure, giving the correct overall front-to-rear brake balance.

The driver’s force on the brake pedal will never create a stable pressure in the master cylinders, so this hydraulic valve will always be opening and shutting to maintain the varying pressure and give a stable front-to-rear brake balance.

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: Electronic brake control in 2014

Post

techF1LES wrote:Excerpt from Autosport magazine article "Secrets of brake-by-wire". Read full analysis with Scarbs' illustrations on pages 26 and 27 in issue #8 20 February 2014.
Gary Anderson wrote:To create this system, the pipe that goes between the rear master cylinder and the ‘T’ piece that separates the fluid flow to each rear caliper is removed. A pressure sensor is fitted to the master cylinder, measuring the pressure the driver is applying to the brake pedal and sending it to the ECU. This can range from 0bar to 100bar.

The ECU will also know what level of energy harvest the driver is requesting under braking to charge the battery. This is signalled via a dial on the steering wheel with approximately 10 positions on it.

These two signals will be combined, and the rear-brake pressure needed to give the front to-rear brake balance requested by the driver will be defined. This pressure will be achieved by opening a hydraulic control valve, letting through high-pressure hydraulic fluid. This valve will be mounted near the rear of the car on the pipework that would normally feed the brake fluid to the rear calipers. On this pipework there will also be a pressure sensor to monitor the newly-requested rear-brake pressure. This hydraulic valve would then shuttle back and forth to maintain the requested rear-brakeline pressure, giving the correct overall front-to-rear brake balance.

The driver’s force on the brake pedal will never create a stable pressure in the master cylinders, so this hydraulic valve will always be opening and shutting to maintain the varying pressure and give a stable front-to-rear brake balance.
So the driver has no feed back from the brake pedal at all from the rear brakes, therefore he cannot calculate the pressure applied against the deceleration he feels. It becomes almost impossible for the driver to make brake pedal pressure allowances for the changing frictional capabilities of the rear brake assemblies.
Driving the car changes from driving skill to learning to apply pressure on the brake pedal solely to suit the electronic control system.
If the friction material in the rear brakes wears out of balance to the control map, car control will be lost no matter how good the driver might be.
Soon the drivers will only be along for the ride.

User avatar
dren
227
Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 14:14

Re: Electronic brake control in 2014

Post

The driver should not notice any rear brake pad changes since there is no hydraulic circuit to give feedback to the driver, as you state. The control system will compensate for any pad changes. It will operate a valve for the desired rear hydraulic pressure which provides feedback to the ECU. If rear brake pads wear, the valving will operate differently to achieve the desired rear hydraulic pressure.

The issue then comes with how the fronts wear and what master cylinder the pedal pressure is taken from.
Honda!

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: Electronic brake control in 2014

Post

dren wrote:The driver should not notice any rear brake pad changes since there is no hydraulic circuit to give feedback to the driver, as you state. The control system will compensate for any pad changes. It will operate a valve for the desired rear hydraulic pressure which provides feedback to the ECU. If rear brake pads wear, the valving will operate differently to achieve the desired rear hydraulic pressure.

The issue then comes with how the fronts wear and what master cylinder the pedal pressure is taken from.
It is not just pad wear that needs to be dealt with.
There are many changing operational conditions that radically change the braking efficiency of disk brakes.
With a manual system the driver can control the changes relatively well with his feel of the pedal relative to braking effect.
His skill will allow him to vary his foot pressure and choose a front to rear brake setting for best results.
This years fly by wire system for brakes, electronic gear shifts and electrically controlled energy recovery relies solely on electronic control.
True the driver can choose different maps but the car is well out of his full control now.