Red Bull exceed fuel flow limit, Ricciardo DSQ at Australian GP

[alexx_88]

Am I the only one who thinks the momentary fuel mass flow is simply stupid on the background of a race distance fuel cap? And I also think such fine measurements are practically impossible in real race environment but have a large potential for post-race scandals and manipulations.
They say they had many flag triggers but I'd like to know with how much exactly the limit values have been exceeded.
But, as I said, it's stupid for a race formula claiming to be the fastest among all.

Fully agree from the racing perspective. With a "board-room view" of the flow rate issue, they probably intended to encourage manufacturers to purse efficiency. However, that idea is then put to rest by the limitation in energy recovery, which seem even more artificial as unlimited energy recovery would've probably offered more powerful cars and that would've helped both the spectacle of racing and the "F1 is green" theme.

But without this there'd be even more fuel management, where drivers would go into some hyper-KERS-button 1000+hp mode one lap, and then go into 500hp saving mode the next.

I don't think it would've been that extreme. There's no point in passing someone, only to be re-passed the next time they hit the "hyper-KERS" (cool name ) button

[KingHamilton01]

Proud of McLaren, gone pretty quietly about there buisness, they never admitted to having the fastest car but they made up for that today with great teamwork and stratergy. Magnussen is a great example to the management in and around him. He pushed all weekend even in the wet and then raced superbly in around much more experienced Race driver's and did himself and the team very proud. This makes me very excited for the rest of the season now, great foundation's upon which to build on, I will also point out like many people have previously, the championship will not be decided by today's race so McLaren have bought themselves time to develop what they have to start fighting at the front.

[WhiteBlue]

This fuel sensor problem has come at a bad time. You don't want any doubt when you are in the process of introducing a new fuel flow formula. I'm wondering if they could have verified the amount of fuel consumed by draining the car after the race and comparing it to what was filled in in the first place. That may not be an approved method but it would have given a figure in a practical way that people can relate to.

[mkay]

So, where's the dude about his pole conversion ratio?

Lewis's is dropping further as a result of the engine failure...

[piast9]

Discarding or averaging?

In my opinion averaging with 5 Hz lowpass filter cutoff frequency or 0.2 s time constant of the integrator. Just to limit the noise and increase the accuracy. That's a normal practice in measuring.

[myurr]

Discarding or averaging?

In my opinion averaging with 5 Hz lowpass filter cutoff frequency or 0.2 s time constant of the integrator. Just to limit the noise and increase the accuracy. That's a normal practice in measuring.

That was my expectation, but the previous comment said that the data was being discarded which then wouldn't be true.

[fritticaldi]

Red bull are appealing the stewards decision to DSQ Ricciardo. I cant imagine the mayhem this is going to create should they overturn the decision.

[alexx_88]

Discarding or averaging?

In my opinion averaging with 5 Hz lowpass filter cutoff frequency or 0.2 s time constant of the integrator. Just to limit the noise and increase the accuracy. That's a normal practice in measuring.

That was my expectation, but the previous comment said that the data was being discarded which then wouldn't be true.

I probably jumped to conclusions. My mistake.

[NTS]

I don't think it would've been that extreme. There's no point in passing someone, only to be re-passed the next time they hit the "hyper-KERS" (cool name ) button

Whoever was being put under pressure would just push the "hyper-KERS" button as well and take out a bit of their fuel-reserves for the rest of the race. That would really not be that much different from pushing harder when under pressure and taking life out of the tires. You go faster to attack or defend and have to pay for that later in the race.

Not having the fuel-flow limit would probably result in more entertaining races where there are more opportunities to push / defend / strategically let someone go and catch them later. The only area where it would have a big impact is qualifying because there you have no "100kg total" rule to keep them from turning everything to 11. But that also might be entertaining to look at

[komninosm]

Am I the only one who thinks the momentary fuel mass flow is simply stupid on the background of a race distance fuel cap? And I also think such fine measurements are practically impossible in real race environment but have a large potential for post-race scandals and manipulations.
They say they had many flag triggers but I'd like to know with how much exactly the limit values have been exceeded.
But, as I said, it's stupid for a race formula claiming to be the fastest among all.

I agree. It's a nonsense rule. What's it meant to stop anyway?

Am I the only one who thinks the momentary fuel mass flow is simply stupid on the background of a race distance fuel cap? And I also think such fine measurements are practically impossible in real race environment but have a large potential for post-race scandals and manipulations.
They say they had many flag triggers but I'd like to know with how much exactly the limit values have been exceeded.
But, as I said, it's stupid for a race formula claiming to be the fastest among all.

Fully agree from the racing perspective. With a "board-room view" of the flow rate issue, they probably intended to encourage manufacturers to purse efficiency. However, that idea is then put to rest by the limitation in energy recovery, which seem even more artificial as unlimited energy recovery would've probably offered more powerful cars and that would've helped both the spectacle of racing and the "F1 is green" theme.

But without this there'd be even more fuel management, where drivers would go into some hyper-KERS-button 1000+hp mode one lap, and then go into 500hp saving mode the next.

I don't think it would've been that extreme. There's no point in passing someone, only to be re-passed the next time they hit the "hyper-KERS" (cool name ) button

I agree with this post even more.

[Juzh]

Am I the only one who thinks the momentary fuel mass flow is simply stupid on the background of a race distance fuel cap? And I also think such fine measurements are practically impossible in real race environment but have a large potential for post-race scandals and manipulations.
They say they had many flag triggers but I'd like to know with how much exactly the limit values have been exceeded.
But, as I said, it's stupid for a race formula claiming to be the fastest among all.

I agree. It's a nonsense rule. What's it meant to stop anyway?

It's meant to stop 1000+ bhp power outputs.

[Dragonfly]

Am I the only one who thinks the momentary fuel mass flow is simply stupid on the background of a race distance fuel cap? And I also think such fine measurements are practically impossible in real race environment but have a large potential for post-race scandals and manipulations.
They say they had many flag triggers but I'd like to know with how much exactly the limit values have been exceeded.
But, as I said, it's stupid for a race formula claiming to be the fastest among all.

I agree. It's a nonsense rule. What's it meant to stop anyway?

It's meant to stop 1000+ bhp power outputs.

Who'd dare with only 5 PU per car for the season?

[jz11]

Am I the only one who thinks the momentary fuel mass flow is simply stupid on the background of a race distance fuel cap? And I also think such fine measurements are practically impossible in real race environment but have a large potential for post-race scandals and manipulations.
They say they had many flag triggers but I'd like to know with how much exactly the limit values have been exceeded.
But, as I said, it's stupid for a race formula claiming to be the fastest among all.

I second the opinion of the restriction to momentary flow, especially when there are real problems with the measurement accuracy, and "weirdest" part about it is the B option FIA left for themselves"

a. The Technical Directive starts by stating: “The homologated fuel flow sensor will be the primary measurement of the fuel flow and will be used to check compliance with Articles 5.1.4 and 5.1.5 of the F1 Technical Regulations…” This is in conformity with Articles 5.10.3 and 5.10.4 of the Technical Regulations.

b. The Technical Directive goes on to state: “If at any time WE consider that the sensor has an issue which has not been detected by the system WE will communicate this to the team concerned and switch to a backup system” (emphasis added.)

c. The backup system is the calculated fuel flow model with a correction factor decided by the FIA.

so, what the team in my opinion did, was to go and use the B. option without FIA consent, thinking they might have had enough leverage (inconsistencies with the sensor earlier in the weekend) to persuade the stewards in case a sanction was imposed on to them

IMHO - you should not introduce such a rule in the first place if there are problems with the measurement system, and I bet they suspected there might be, hence the b. and c. in the rule book

so, from a POV of a very competitive team, which doesn't seem to be in a great shape at the moment, they were instructed - turn your engines down, because there are indications that fuel flow might have been exceeded, even though they aren't 100% sure that it actually was exceeded

but then again - rules are rules, they gambled - they lost, this time

I also wonder if the sanction would have been this harsh if they had regular type camera mounts on the nose of the car, maybe FIA was just flexing its muscle to show - hey! stop f&^&*^ with us!

[myurr]

Doesn't matter if it's a nonsense rule or not, it's still a rule and Red Bull look like they've failed to comply.

For years we've seen Red Bull skirting the rules, particularly around flexible aero, and had to put up with both them and their fans saying that the car passed the tests thus making it legal, even though we had video evidence showing it was flexing far more than the FIA intended. In this instance the car failed the tests and is therefore illegal, it shouldn't matter what other evidence they show.

In both instances the tests themselves are codified into the regulations thus making the passing of those tests a technical rule of the sport. Breach of the technical rules means instant disqualification. I can't see their appeal getting them very far.

[komninosm]

I agree. It's a nonsense rule. What's it meant to stop anyway?

It's meant to stop 1000+ bhp power outputs.

Who'd dare with only 5 PU per car for the season?

Isn't engine power capped too? How are these engines being run?