Mechanical properties of an F1 engine.

[mx_tifoso]

This contrasts with road car engines of a similar size which operate safely at typically less than 7,000 RPM. However, the torque (turning power at a given speed) of a Formula 1 engine is not much higher than a conventional petrol engine. For example, the 2.4 litre toyota engine producing 544 kw (740 PS) at 19000 RPM, outputs 274 N.m thus a 14,3 bar mean effective pressure. This is comparable with the 14,3bar maximum MEP of the 2003 BMW E46 M3 CSL, the best production car in this respect, although the F1 torque value is perhaps higher at a lower rotational speed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Fo ... ne_engines

274 N.m = 202 ft-lb of torque ?

[Ray]

Yeah, the only reason they make such high HP is cause HP is a function of RPM. More RPM you make, the more likely you'll make big power. But with a stroke of just over an inch, they'll never make torque at all. It's just not possible. I'd be willing to bet 325lb-ft is the MOST you are going to make out of one of those motors. But I do love them all the same. But a big Pro Stock NHRA builder said he would use pneumatic valves in their motors like F1 does, if it were legal. Mentioned that they would do it in a heartbeat, BUT they would have to make it financially feasible.

[countersteer]

because a sping does odd things past 12000RPM

I had always heard the 12k RPM limit for a valve spring. Then, next thing I hear, the turbo 2.65 liter CART turbo motors are spinning 14k + for 500 miles at the peak of the manufacturer wars. Also, the latest Honda 600 sport bike redlines at 15k from the factory... stock.

What changed? I'm assuming they've done a lot of development in dampeners on the springs. Any ideas?

Rob

[Saribro]

PS: how did u calculate power out of those numbers? :?

Power(hp)=(Torque(Nm) * Speed(RPM))/7121

[EDIT]To clarify: the conversion factor (here: 7121) can differ depending on how early you round Pi and whether you use metric/mechanical or electrical horspower conversion numbers (and how early you round them). I've chosen 7121 because it matches the engine output at 17500 RPM as specced.

[Saribro]

And according to Saribro's graph, the engine torque output is below 0 ft-lb below 1,200 RPM ? How does that work ? And is that true ?

That's just inertia and friction generating more opposition than the engine can fight at that point. It's where the engine would stall even when unloaded.
Also, the crossover to positive torque/power is somewhere around 800 RPM, the table mentions 3 Nm of torque at 1000 RPM (a full 0.4 HP :D). (The 1000rpm point on the graph isn't the mark above 1000, but the middle of the space between that mark and the next. I'm not sure why that happened.)

[EDIT]Fixed the graph, so the latter part isn't relevant anymore :).

[Coder]

Thanks for all the info, this is MUCH appreciated.

Also thanks for the chart, which shows it's not a linear dependecy as I had suspected.

[bizadfar]

I would suggest you get hold of rFactor - then download some of the better mods (inc. some F1 mods) - then take a close look at the various car files - I expect you will find everything you require in those. The amount of information required to make an rFactor mod is staggering - if you need more than that you are probably developing some form of supe-sim.

Spring length/spring rate - damping values etc. are pretty irrelevant unless you know the motion ratio between spring and wheel.

Actually they all mostly crap, those engine files. Even my one is better(bias factor).

A good engine a friend made was for F1 challenge RH05 with 2007 patch including newer aero/engine but not tyres(complicated to program)

A 2006 engine i beleive is about 125nm per litre of displacement. In 2007 we can expect 5% more due to lower rpm.

[modbaraban]

Actually they all mostly crap, those engine files. Even my one is better(bias factor).

Actually I planned using one for F1Challenge. If you got a better one. post it here, please

[jwielage]

And according to Saribro's graph, the engine torque output is below 0 ft-lb below 1,200 RPM ?

mx_tifosi, I am not sure which chart you are looking at, but the torque curve appears to read about 300 footpounds at 12,000 rpm.

Nice chart by the way however I am not a fan of the 3/4 grey background, I would have gone with white, its easier to read. Just kidding!

[jwielage]

I am an idiot, my whole last post is writen as a quote, i think you guys get the picture none the less

[modbaraban]

You can repair it by clicking on the right above the post

[Saribro]

mx_tifosi, I am not sure which chart you are looking at, but the torque curve appears to read about 300 footpounds at 12,000 rpm.

1)The torque scale is in Newtonmeter (Nm).
2)He said 1.200rpm, not 12.000.

[bizadfar]

This is one i designed a while ago. It still needs to be modified i think just for cooling parameters etc. I dont know how to attach the file so i paste it here. Make a new txt file and paste this in it. Then save it as .ini This one is also for rfactor.

// Maximum Torque: 313 NM @ 16600 RPM
// Maximum Power: 750 horsepower @ 19000 RPM
RPMTorque=( 0.0, -32.3, -22.7)
RPMTorque=( 500.0, -30.8, 9.0)
RPMTorque=( 1000.0, -31.5, 34.5)
RPMTorque=( 1500.0, -35.2, 58.4)
RPMTorque=( 2000.0, -37.2, 85.4)
RPMTorque=( 2500.0, -39.1, 106.1)
RPMTorque=( 3000.0, -42.4, 125.2)
RPMTorque=( 3500.0, -42.8, 147.5)
RPMTorque=( 4000.0, -44.7, 163.4)
RPMTorque=( 4500.0, -46.6, 180.9)
RPMTorque=( 5000.0, -48.6, 193.6)
RPMTorque=( 5500.0, -50.7, 203.2)
RPMTorque=( 6000.0, -52.8, 215.9)
RPMTorque=( 6500.0, -55.0, 227.1)
RPMTorque=( 7000.0, -57.2, 239.8)
RPMTorque=( 7500.0, -59.4, 250.9)
RPMTorque=( 8000.0, -61.7, 258.9)
RPMTorque=( 8500.0, -63.9, 268.4)
RPMTorque=( 9000.0, -66.2, 274.8)
RPMTorque=( 9500.0, -68.5, 279.6)
RPMTorque=( 10000.0, -70.8, 285.9)
RPMTorque=( 10500.0, -73.4, 292.3)
RPMTorque=( 11000.0, -76.0, 295.5)
RPMTorque=( 11500.0, -78.9, 300.3)
RPMTorque=( 12000.0, -82.0, 305.0)
RPMTorque=( 12500.0, -84.6, 309.8)
RPMTorque=( 13000.0, -86.4, 313.0)
RPMTorque=( 13500.0, -91.0, 317.8)
RPMTorque=( 14000.0, -96.0, 322.5)
RPMTorque=( 14500.0, -99.0, 325.7)
RPMTorque=( 15000.0, -103.0, 328.9)
RPMTorque=( 15500.0, -106.0, 327.3)
RPMTorque=( 15750.0, -114.2, 328.9)
RPMTorque=( 16000.0, -120.9, 328.9)
RPMTorque=( 16500.0, -127.0, 322.5)
RPMTorque=( 17000.0, -133.3, 313.0)
RPMTorque=( 17500.0, -139.6, 300.3)
RPMTorque=( 18000.0, -145.0, 284.4)
RPMTorque=( 18500.0, -152.7, 266.8)
RPMTorque=( 19000.0, -160.1, 246.2)
RPMTorque=( 19500.0, -168.8, 227.1)
RPMTorque=( 20000.0, -179.3, 201.6)
RPMTorque=( 20500.0, -192.7, 180.9)
RPMTorque=( 21000.0, -210.5, 155.4)
RPMTorque=( 21500.0, -233.7, 125.2)
RPMTorque=( 22000.0, -265.5, 94.8)
RPMTorque=( 22500.0, -309.3, 45.9)
RPMTorque=( 23000.0, -353.0, -19.3)
FuelConsumption=3.170e-005 // affected by throttle position and engine speed
FuelEstimate=1.745 // 1.745 fudge factor for differences between vehicle types (used for lap estimates and AI pit scheduling)
EngineInertia=0.0516 // rotational inertia of engine components
IdleThrottle=1.0 // throttle multiplier to help maintain idle speed
IdleRPMLogic=(3980.0, 4400.0) // attempt to maintain idle speed between these RPMs
LaunchEfficiency=0.993 // efficiency (0.0-1.0) of launch control, or 0.0 if N/A
LaunchRPMLogic=(7800.0, 11000.0) // holds RPM in this range before launch (used for AI even if launch control is N/A!)
LaunchVariables=3 // level of traction control used (0-3) and whether auto-upshifting is enabled (add 4); default=7
RevLimitRange=(18370.0, 45.0, 15)
RevLimitSetting=15
RevLimitLogic=150.0 // RPM range around current setting where rev limiter operates
RevLimitAvailable=1 // whether to use a rev limit (if 0, you still must have a "rev limit", just make it 40000 or so, and make sure to change [CONTROLS]->UpshiftAlgorithm to fix shifting points)
EngineMapRange=(0, 1, 5) // 0 = most driveable, max = most power (low gears only) (unimplemented)
EngineMapSetting=2
EngineBoostRange=(0.0, 1.0, 10)
EngineBoostSetting=1
BoostEffects=(15.0, 0.005, 0.52) // RPM increase per setting, fuel increase (1%) per setting, engine wear rate (5.2%) per setting
BoostTorque=-0.0043 // 0.4% less torque per setting (applies to all RPMs)
BoostPower=0.000150 // % more horsepower per setting
EngineBrakingMapRange=(0, 1.20e-04, 6) // input throttle is ranged from minimum to 100%, with the minimum = setting * step * RPM
EngineBrakingMapSetting=2 // the default is 1 * 0.000133 * 15000 RPM = 2% applied throttle at zero input throttlse
OptimumOilTemp=107.1 // degrees Celsius at which engine operates optimally
CombustionHeat=88.5 // degrees Celsius added per liter of fuel burned
EngineSpeedHeat=2.185e-003 // heat added linearly with engine speed changed from 2.185
OilMinimumCooling=4.950e-004 // heat dissipated without radiator
OilWaterHeatTransfer=(1.28e-2,3.45e-4) // heat transfer from oil to water (base, w/ engine speed)
WaterMinimumCooling=6.000e-004 // heat dissipated without radiator
RadiatorCooling=(11.80e-04, 2.50e-04) // cooling rate with velocity (base, per setting)12.4,2.5
LifetimeEngineRPM=(17775.0,342.0) // (base engine speed for lifetime, range where lifetime is halved)
LifetimeOilTemp=(125.8,2.90) // (base oil temp for lifetime, range where lifetime is halved)
LifetimeAvg=8105 // average lifetime in seconds
LifetimeVar=4200 // lifetime random variance
EngineEmission=(0.0, 0.50, 0.0) // where flames and smoke are emitted (relative to ref frame at rear axle)
EngineSound=(0.0, 0.50, 0.0) // where engine sound is played (relative to ref frame at rear axle)
SpeedLimiter=1 // whether vehicle has a pitlane speed limiter
OnboardStarter=0 // whether vehicle restarts when stalled
StarterTiming=(0.1, 0.0, 3.6) // average and variable cranking time, then time to blend with starting sound

This is the one a friend made for F1c, we use in the league:
I think/believe it has very good cooling parameters.

RPMTorque=( 0.0, -30.0, 0.0)
RPMTorque=( 500.0, -30.2, 23.1)
RPMTorque=( 1000.0, -31.8, 45.6)
RPMTorque=( 1500.0, -33.8, 65.1)
RPMTorque=( 2000.0, -35.9, 84.6)
RPMTorque=( 2500.0, -38.2, 101.1)
RPMTorque=( 3000.0, -40.8, 112.2)
RPMTorque=( 3500.0, -43.6, 122.1)
RPMTorque=( 4000.0, -46.7, 132.4)
RPMTorque=( 4500.0, -49.9, 140.0)
RPMTorque=( 5000.0, -53.3, 147.5)
RPMTorque=( 5500.0, -57.2, 152.6)
RPMTorque=( 6000.0, -61.2, 159.8)
RPMTorque=( 6500.0, -65.4, 165.7)
RPMTorque=( 7000.0, -69.9, 174.5)
RPMTorque=( 7500.0, -74.6, 180.5)
RPMTorque=( 8000.0, -79.5, 187.7)
RPMTorque=( 8500.0, -84.8, 194.0)
RPMTorque=( 9000.0, -90.2, 199.7)
RPMTorque=( 9500.0, -95.9, 205.8)
RPMTorque=( 10000.0, -102.8, 212.4)
RPMTorque=( 10500.0, -108.9, 217.7)
RPMTorque=( 11000.0, -114.8, 224.0)
RPMTorque=( 11500.0, -122.0, 231.5)
RPMTorque=( 12000.0, -128.8, 239.1)
RPMTorque=( 12500.0, -135.8, 246.5)
RPMTorque=( 13000.0, -143.3, 255.2)
RPMTorque=( 13500.0, -152.2, 263.9)
RPMTorque=( 14000.0, -160.2, 273.4)
RPMTorque=( 14500.0, -168.7, 281.8)
RPMTorque=( 15000.0, -174.7, 289.6)
RPMTorque=( 15500.0, -182.9, 296.2)
RPMTorque=( 16000.0, -192.7, 301.3)
RPMTorque=( 16500.0, -201.7, 305.2)
RPMTorque=( 17000.0, -209.7, 308.7)
RPMTorque=( 17500.0, -219.7, 311.2)
RPMTorque=( 18000.0, -230.2, 310.9)
RPMTorque=( 18500.0, -241.8, 306.4)
RPMTorque=( 19000.0, -255.2, 298.0)
RPMTorque=( 19500.0, -266.7, 280.9)
RPMTorque=( 20000.0, -277.7, 257.0)
RPMTorque=( 20500.0, -289.5, 228.5)
RPMTorque=( 21000.0, -300.9, 195.5)
RPMTorque=( 21500.0, -310.1, 153.5)
RPMTorque=( 22000.0, -322.5, 96.9)
FuelConsumption=2.962e-005 // affected by throttle position and engine speed
FuelEstimate=1.000 // fudge factor for differences between vehicle types (used for lap estimates and AI pit scheduling)
EngineInertia=0.0492 // rotational inertia of engine components
IdleThrottle=1.0 // throttle multiplier to help maintain idle speed
IdleRPMLogic=(3360.6, 4233.4) // attempt to maintain idle speed between these RPMs
LaunchEfficiency=0.0 // efficiency (0.0-1.0) of launch control, or 0.0 if N/A
LaunchRPMLogic=(8087.5, 9255.2) // holds RPM in this range before launch (used for AI even if launch control is N/A!)
RevLimitRange=(18300.0, 50.0, 15)
RevLimitSetting=7
RevLimitLogic=150.0 // RPM range around current setting where rev limiter operates
EngineMapRange=(0, 1, 5) // 0 = most driveable, max = most power (low gears only) (unimplemented)
EngineMapSetting=2
EngineBrakingMapRange=(0.0, 0.000125, 6) // input throttle is ranged from minimum to 100%, with the minimum = setting * step * RPM,
EngineBrakingMapSetting=2 // the default is 2 * 0.000125 * 16000 RPM = 4% applied throttle at zero input throttle
OptimumOilTemp=108.2 // degrees Celsius at which engine operates optimally
CombustionHeat=32.0 // degrees Celsius added per liter of fuel burned
EngineSpeedHeat=7.763e-004 // heat added linearly with engine speed
OilMinimumCooling=9.156e-004 // heat dissipated without radiator
OilWaterHeatTransfer=(5.298e-003,8.952e-005) // heat transfer from oil to water (base, w/ engine speed)
WaterMinimumCooling=3.757e-003 // heat dissipated without radiator
RadiatorCooling=(2.889e-004, 1.016e-004) // cooling rate with velocity (base, per setting)
LifetimeEngineRPM=(18000.0,150.0) // (base engine speed for lifetime, range where lifetime is halved)
LifetimeOilTemp=(125.07,1.65) // (base oil temp for lifetime, range where lifetime is halved)
LifetimeAvg=6800 // average lifetime in seconds
LifetimeVar=4000 // lifetime random variance
EngineEmission=(0.0, 0.53, 0.0) // where flames and smoke are emitted (relative to ref frame at rear axle)
OnboardStarter=0 // whether vehicle restarts when stalled
StarterTiming=(1.4, 0.4, 1.5) // average and variable cranking time, then time to blend with starting sound

Play around with the rev limit as much as you want. The first engine I quoted and made was suppose to rev to around 20750rpm including boost intended for 2006 season. Some guys i think modified it to around 19.5k.

[modbaraban]

IdleRPMLogic=(3980.0, 4400.0) // attempt to maintain idle speed between these RPMs

IdleRPMLogic=(3360.6, 4233.4) // attempt to maintain idle speed between these RPMs

thanx.

One thing - I believe the idle rpms of both V8s are to be higher, aren't they? Around 5-6krpm... or something...

Maybe some1 can clarify this for us?

[riff_raff]

"Yeah, there is no way in hell an F1 rngine could produce that much torque. Or even half that."

Torque (lb-ft)= (hp x 5252) / rpm So, 800hp @ 18,500rpm = 227 lb-ft torque.

However, peak torque typically does not coincide with peak power. Peak torque usually coincides with peak volumetric efficiency, and by definition max BMEP rate.