F1 2014 Car Comparison Thread

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
beelsebob
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Re: F1 2014 Car Comparison Thread

Post by beelsebob » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:29 pm

Pierce89 wrote:If that was the case the Red Bull would be moving MORE heat out of the back of the sidepod, not less. Besides, this level of difference obviously shows different conditions and/or location.
Why would you think that? My assertion is that they are having to turn the Renault engine down to make it not fail. The result is that it runs relatively cool, and they are able to dump less heat to keep it at its operating temperature.

trinidefender
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Re: F1 2014 Car Comparison Thread

Post by trinidefender » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:50 am

I seriously doubt it is a thermal image. Looks like a photoshop image. Here are my reasons:

1. Why is the exhaust not much much brighter than the other parts in the image. The exhaust gas temp is probably between 800 and 900 degrees centigrade. For reference, for the heli that I fly, the T5 limiting temp of the gases between two stages of turbines, is 893 degrees C for maximum continuous power (can use it till you run out of fuel basically). That engine had completed the design stage and was released for certification testing on 4th December 2003. So yes I'm sure the exhaust gases will be much hotter and hence brighter in this image. Yet they are only the same colour as the air coming out of the hot air exits in the body work.

2. Why is nowhere else showing any disparity in heating. The tyres are their normal colour, bodywork behind the radiators, normal colour, it just doesn't make sense. I guess you can turn down the gain on the thermal camera to make it less sensitive so you only show the hot air exits properly but that would just make the hot exhaust stand out even more and make the rest if the car hard to see.

Personal opinion, definite photoshop. If you want to argue against my point at least take the time to include some evidence like I have tried to do please.

beelsebob
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Re: F1 2014 Car Comparison Thread

Post by beelsebob » Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:03 am

Both are explainable via calibration - the thermal sensor could entirely reasonably be calibrated to show between 200 and 500°C (for example). The result being that no area of the car shows as hot except for the hot air vents. The exhaust gets clamped to the upper value, and the tyres to the lower value. We already know that they choose a calibration for the thermal sensors that makes the tyres glow hot in the corners, but not on the straights. It's not unreasonable to believe that the same is happening at the top end.

trinidefender
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Re: F1 2014 Car Comparison Thread

Post by trinidefender » Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:41 am

beelsebob wrote:Both are explainable via calibration - the thermal sensor could entirely reasonably be calibrated to show between 200 and 500°C (for example). The result being that no area of the car shows as hot except for the hot air vents. The exhaust gets clamped to the upper value, and the tyres to the lower value. We already know that they choose a calibration for the thermal sensors that makes the tyres glow hot in the corners, but not on the straights. It's not unreasonable to believe that the same is happening at the top end.
If it is a thermal image then why are all the stickers/paintwork etc visible on the car? It honestly looks like a greyscale image with Photoshop work done to it

beelsebob
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Re: F1 2014 Car Comparison Thread

Post by beelsebob » Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:47 am

trinidefender wrote:
beelsebob wrote:Both are explainable via calibration - the thermal sensor could entirely reasonably be calibrated to show between 200 and 500°C (for example). The result being that no area of the car shows as hot except for the hot air vents. The exhaust gets clamped to the upper value, and the tyres to the lower value. We already know that they choose a calibration for the thermal sensors that makes the tyres glow hot in the corners, but not on the straights. It's not unreasonable to believe that the same is happening at the top end.
If it is a thermal image then why are all the stickers/paintwork etc visible on the car? It honestly looks like a greyscale image with Photoshop work done to it
The problem with your photoshop theory is that this was broadcast live. You can't photoshop that fast.

The stickers will be there because they are making alpha 0 when the temperature clamps off the bottom, and compositing over a greyscale visual spectrum image.

trinidefender
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Re: F1 2014 Car Comparison Thread

Post by trinidefender » Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:15 am

beelsebob wrote:
trinidefender wrote:
beelsebob wrote:Both are explainable via calibration - the thermal sensor could entirely reasonably be calibrated to show between 200 and 500°C (for example). The result being that no area of the car shows as hot except for the hot air vents. The exhaust gets clamped to the upper value, and the tyres to the lower value. We already know that they choose a calibration for the thermal sensors that makes the tyres glow hot in the corners, but not on the straights. It's not unreasonable to believe that the same is happening at the top end.
If it is a thermal image then why are all the stickers/paintwork etc visible on the car? It honestly looks like a greyscale image with Photoshop work done to it
The problem with your photoshop theory is that this was broadcast live. You can't photoshop that fast.

The stickers will be there because they are making alpha 0 when the temperature clamps off the bottom, and compositing over a greyscale visual spectrum image.
Did you personally see it live or have the video or anything because that is news to me. I didn't realise it came from a live feed. Can you confirm this please? Also so the camera works in both ranges and overlays a thermal image over a normal light spectrum image?

Sorry camera work isn't my forte

gandharva
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Re: F1 2014 Car Comparison Thread

Post by gandharva » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:56 am

FoxHound wrote:Nice photo of how the different teams use the heat to hit the beam wing.

http://oi61.tinypic.com/2z5iwhw.jpg
Shopped. ;)

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OBELIKS
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Re: F1 2014 Car Comparison Thread

Post by OBELIKS » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:16 am

Well, it's obvious it was modified. If it was a direct thermal image the background would not be visible as it is. Tarmac would be one color, barriers other and so on. Also decals on the rear wing would not be visible ...
On the other hand, it is possible that thermal image was pasted to the normal image. But all that is irrelevant if you don't know if Mercedes was on hot lap or Red Bull was just cruising.

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Re: F1 2014 Car Comparison Thread

Post by avatar » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:30 pm

Not a thermal image, even if it were an overlay of just the area on a standard image:

- exhaust shows as cooler than wishbones, unless inverted so light=cool & then the Ferrari exhaust temp wouldn't fit, and on the other 2 it suggests there's as much heat in the sidepods as the exhaust, so they might be on fire?
- "hot" areas cover parts of Merc r/w endplate, RBR monkey seat
- rbr wishbones show hot and cold with clear dividing line (no transition) & the "hot" is asymmetrical, but perfectly lined up with the camera's line of sight to the cooling exit.

I think someone was just trying to highlight the size/shape of the exits, not fake up a thermal image....

zioture
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Re: F1 2014 Car Comparison Thread

Post by zioture » Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:42 am

Comparison Diffuser Ferrari Vs Red bull racing

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zioture
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Re: F1 2014 Car Comparison Thread

Post by zioture » Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:50 am

Nice shot for Comparison Redbull RB10 FERRARI F14T
Image

zioture
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Re: F1 2014 Car Comparison Thread

Post by zioture » Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:17 pm

Image

F14T and W05 in Singapore

hollus
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Re: F1 2014 Car Comparison Thread

Post by hollus » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:09 am

I wanted to measure the diameter of each exhaust pipe (final section only). I chose the pictures shown below with the idea of comparing it to the rear light, so the pictures are chosen to be taken from a largish distance to minimize perpective effects. Then I counted pixels for the diameter of the pipe and between the top two shiny spots in the rear light (are they bolts?) and compared. Wit three pictures per engine, the internal variation is in the order of 5%.

What I got:
In the Mercedes, the pipe is 1.368 times larger than the reference.
In the Ferrari, the pipe is 1.740 times larger than the reference (Might be a tad bigger than that, the second picture, where the ratio came a bit smaller, is the one taken from the shortest distance).
In the Renault, the pipe is 1.316 times larger than the reference.

Now I have a lot of questions:
How long is this bolt-to-bolt distance?
I got 3 pics from Mercedes, three from Ferrari and then 2 from Red Bull and one from Toro Rosso? Can we assume that for the same engine the teams will also have the same final diameter? Or can they be different? The Toro Rosso came a bit larger than the two Bull's pics, but the variation wasn't larger than Ferrari to Ferrari...
What real life effects does this have? I can imagine that a smaller pipe will mean larger back pressure and a faster flow. What else? Any large effects on engine power? Cooling?


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Last edited by hollus on Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
...not because they are easy, but because they are hard!

Gianlu27
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Re: F1 2014 Car Comparison Thread

Post by Gianlu27 » Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:41 pm

Front Wing comparison Singapore Grand Prix: Mercedes/Ferrari/RedBull/Williams

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Blanchimont
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Re: F1 2014 Car Comparison Thread

Post by Blanchimont » Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:56 pm

hollus wrote: Now I have a lot of questions:
How long is this bolt-to-bolt distance?
Here's the information you need:
http://www.mclarenelectronics.com/Produ ... /Rainlight
http://www.mclarenelectronics.com/Conte ... nlight.pdf

From the total width of 90mm you can derive your measured bolt to bolt distance.


And to check the obtained results for plausibility, compare them with:
"5.8.3
The cross-sectional area of the exhaust exit at the rearmost point of the tailpipe must lie between 7500mm² and 14000mm²."
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