Skip to content

Who broke wind(tunnels)?!

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
User avatar
checkered
0
Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

Who broke wind(tunnels)?!

Post

Are the teams actually

in over their heads when rushing into constructing or buying new wind tunnels? First mumblings from Honda that the calibrations of their new tunnel were off and that they didn't understand all the characteristics of the device. And now Newey is suggesting that the best course of action with RBR's Bedford tunnel is to step back and decommission the thing for as long as it takes to get it working properly.
"We had some significant differences between how the wind tunnel suggested the car should behave and how it actually did behave.

And given the very short time we had before Melbourne, we just looked at the parts that might be misbehaving and redesigned them based on my previous experience."
A simplified layout of a wind tunnel
A more detailed introduction to wind tunnels

So what to do? Bring in experts who better understand the design and operation of wind tunnels? Revert back to simpler tools (scale tunnels and such) in the lack of resources to understand more complex setups? Rely more on CFD? Develop better aero estimation tools that can be applied to real life testing circumstances?
Top
kilcoo316
kilcoo316
21
Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

Post

The problem is the teams have been pushing the companies that "build" the tunnels (or rather, the measuring equipment that goes in them) to get the things up and running ASAP.

Unfortunately, with pushing so hard, corners have to be cut, and this is the result.


Better to wait another year and have the tunnel working right than jump in and make a half assed job of 2 seasons.
Top
User avatar
m3_lover
0
Joined: 26 Jan 2006, 07:29
Location: St.Catharines, Ontario, Canada

Post

It seems Renautl, Honda, Red Bull have all had wind tunnel problems this year..is this sometime of lame excuse to give on why expectations were not met..like a scapegoat type of deal?
Simon: Nils? You can close in now. Nils?
John McClane: [on the guard's phone] Attention! Attention! Nils is dead! I repeat, Nils is dead, ----head. So's his pal, and those four guys from the East German All-Stars, your boys at the bank? They're gonna be a little late.
Simon: [on the phone] John... in the back of the truck you're driving, there's $13 billon dollars worth in gold bullion. I wonder would a deal be out of the question?
John McClane: [on the phone] Yeah, I got a deal for you. Come out from that rock you're hiding under, and I'll drive this truck up your ass.
Top
kilcoo316
kilcoo316
21
Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

Post

To be fair, both Honda and RBR have just "completed" new tunnels.


Renault though.... they had just got planning permission for a new one... but have been using their tunnel in enstone since 1998 (I think it was '98)
Top
User avatar
m3_lover
0
Joined: 26 Jan 2006, 07:29
Location: St.Catharines, Ontario, Canada

Post

I thought Renault were just getting premission to add more computers and servers to do more CFD instead of getting another wind tunnel?
Simon: Nils? You can close in now. Nils?
John McClane: [on the guard's phone] Attention! Attention! Nils is dead! I repeat, Nils is dead, ----head. So's his pal, and those four guys from the East German All-Stars, your boys at the bank? They're gonna be a little late.
Simon: [on the phone] John... in the back of the truck you're driving, there's $13 billon dollars worth in gold bullion. I wonder would a deal be out of the question?
John McClane: [on the phone] Yeah, I got a deal for you. Come out from that rock you're hiding under, and I'll drive this truck up your ass.
Top
RACKITUP
RACKITUP
0
Joined: 23 Apr 2006, 18:27

Post

m3_lover wrote:It seems Renautl, Honda, Red Bull have all had wind tunnel problems this year..is this sometime of lame excuse to give on why expectations were not met..like a scapegoat type of deal?
Thats news to me. What's Renault's problem then?
Top
kilcoo316
kilcoo316
21
Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

Post

m3_lover wrote:I thought Renault were just getting premission to add more computers and servers to do more CFD instead of getting another wind tunnel?
Just googled to check, and got a load of hits for a new wind tunnel (but they aren't exactly sources in widespread use :? )
Top
User avatar
m3_lover
0
Joined: 26 Jan 2006, 07:29
Location: St.Catharines, Ontario, Canada

Post

viewtopic.php?t=4237
Simon: Nils? You can close in now. Nils?
John McClane: [on the guard's phone] Attention! Attention! Nils is dead! I repeat, Nils is dead, ----head. So's his pal, and those four guys from the East German All-Stars, your boys at the bank? They're gonna be a little late.
Simon: [on the phone] John... in the back of the truck you're driving, there's $13 billon dollars worth in gold bullion. I wonder would a deal be out of the question?
John McClane: [on the phone] Yeah, I got a deal for you. Come out from that rock you're hiding under, and I'll drive this truck up your ass.
Top
kilcoo316
kilcoo316
21
Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

Post

Thanks for that :)
Top
rjsa
rjsa
51
Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 03:01

Post

Are the problems with the hardware or it's people around it messing up?

Poor understaniding of what you are measuring, bad test setup and wrong math are bad things with any empiric testing. Hydro/Aero tests takes this to n-power due to scale issues.

The most basic physics lab test, like "let's measure G", with a propperly calibrated cronographer in hand (pretty easy to get right) can give the weirdest results.
Top
BSO_Cards
BSO_Cards
0
Joined: 06 Apr 2007, 06:44

Post

One thing I can tell you about our wind tunnel at school is that a bad calibration isn't a reflection of the wind tunnel but rather of those setting it up for their model. Boeing has been in our wind tunnel all year paying hourly just to calibrate it for their tests they'll eventually do, where-as the senior design projects were calibrated within a short period of time by each group for their tests, needless to say they all had results way off what they expected to get because of poor calibrating, but one group magically had perfect results when presenting their project (clearly they turned their numbers into what they wanted to see)
Top
User avatar
checkered
0
Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

Post

And sometimes, one really can ask

Who broke the windtunnel?
(The sequel: A blast of shrapnel)
We hear on the grapevine that about a month ago Ferrari suffered a failure of its rolling road system in the Maranello windtunnel. The rolling roads in the modern F1 windtunnels are made from a steel belt, which circulates at around 180mph. If a rolling road breaks, the damage can be considerable as lumps of metal fly around at 180mph.

The word is that this may have been what happened.

And that Ferrari has been in trouble ever since.
Quote from grandprix.com, June 19, 2007
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19298.html
Top
User avatar
Lurch
0
Joined: 19 Jun 2007, 17:12

Post

it's a case of people won't pay for windtunnels anymore as well...

you would have thought with the money that the teams have that they would pump a lot of money into it but the design of windtunnels have become really rather simplified in comparison to the older models...

LOLA has probably one of the best wind tunnels in the country....they have a fully hex plate windtunnel which they bought off of BA ages ago...which would have cost the same as a small country to be built now...

is where spyker etc do all there wind tunnel testing at the moment...
Top
User avatar
Shaddock
0
Joined: 07 Nov 2006, 14:39
Location: UK

Post

Earlier this year (I think in Spain) Honda glued pieces of wool all along their rear wing. They strapped a camera to the diffuser to capture it's behaviour and then took to the track.

This shows a distinct lack of faith in data from the wind tunnel to go back to basics in this way.
Top
User avatar
checkered
0
Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

Post

A little more info

on Renault's particular troubles with their "tunnel a vent".

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx ... 6&PO=40086
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40046
Top

Return to “Aerodynamics, chassis and tyres”