2014 Russian GP - Sochi

[Phillyred]

As a HAM fan I'm getting a little nervous how "well" things have gone for him lately.. I'm expecting a reliability issue to crop up somewhere!!

[SectorOne]

Thats not a valid complaint, theres nothing stopping them from running STR levels of DF around here.
Engine is identical, you cant pull the Renault card when comparing to STR.

(for juzh)

Perhaps the entire car philosophy, which currently puts them 2nd in the constructors at 332 points compared to 7th for TR at 29 points, is preventing them that. Don't you think?
In other words, in order to get a renault powered car anywhere near mercedes in speed traps you have to shed off so much downforce and drag to make yourself utterly uncompetitive in all but 2-3 events.

No, the mercedes engine is irrelevant when comparing RBR and STR.

[prince]

they can.

And what would their complaints be?

Theyve got more DF, same Engine. STR simply did a better job.

Underpowered renault is forcing them to compromise and massively cut DF to make them at least somewhat competitive. TR was on par with RB on 2 highly specific tracks this year and are not a good measure of renault performance at all. Not to mention TR is going for slippery car approach for years now.
Bottom line remains. Renault is bad, and RB with a merc engine would wipe the floor with merc similarly to what merc is doing now.

I don't get this quite right. Underpowered? From the beginning of the season, it was all our understanding that, when a circuit has long straights, that is where Renault PU struggles. China, Malaysia, Spa and Monza. Monza became an exception as RBR did performed well by going for ultra low drag setup.

Which means, on other type of circuits which are not heaviliy power dependent, PU shouldn't be a problem for RBR. Traction limited circuits should be neutral to all PUs. High DF downforce limited circuits SHOULD HAVE IDEALLY SUITED RBR as it was always said that they have great deal of DF and quite honestly, in the beginning of the season RBR was matching Mercs in downforce hungry sectors. That is why they are second in constructors standing. Even in previous years, Renault was always down by around 50 BHP against Mercs. It appears that RBR is losing the in-season development competition and standing still, whereas others are moving forward.

Sochi is not a circuit where Renault PU is going to be a BIG handicap. This is a hgh downforce circuit, along with one good long straight. Even if it is arguable that in that straight renault PU falls back, it can't be in seconds compared to Merc. In this particular case, seeing a Toro Rosso qualifying ahead of an RBR, is really shocking.

As a HAM fan I'm getting a little nervous how "well" things have gone for him lately.. I'm expecting a reliability issue to crop up somewhere!!

Is that a worry or a wish?

[BanMeToo]

Vettel starting to reveal himself as an ordinary driver.

You must think Raikkonen an ordinary driver too. And I can't fathom how low your opinion of Mark Webber must be. Driving style and confidence in the behavior of a car plays a large part in all this. I think maybe you have oversimplified things a little. Then.... in my opinion Kvyat has been a bit overrated this season - but that is another topic.

I've been surprised all weekend that Pirelli didn't bring the super soft tire. I mean really these are the tires we had at Spa!

It's also a shame for Bottas in Q3. He could have coasted through the last corner and still had Nico

[condor]

Vettel starting to reveal himself as an ordinary driver.

You must think Raikkonen an ordinary driver too. And I can't fathom how low your opinion of Mark Webber must be. Driving style and confidence in the behavior of a car plays a large part in all this. I think maybe you have oversimplified things a little. Then.... in my opinion Kvyat has been a bit overrated this season - but that is another topic.

I've been surprised all weekend that Pirelli didn't bring the super soft tire. I mean really these are the tires we had at Spa!

It's also a shame for Bottas in Q3. He could have coasted through the last corner and still had Nico

Many drivers are very quick when the car suits them perfectly. However, the drivers that stand out above the rest are the ones that can extract the maximum or close to the maximum out of any car. This is where Kimi, Vettel and Jenson don't measure up to the likes of Alonso or Hamilton. Would I say with confidence that Alonso would have been quicker than Kimi in the 2005 McLaren or that Hamilton faster than Vettel in the 2011 Red Bull? No - maybe they would have been slower, but not by a large amount.

The difference though is that if you put each of them in 10 different cars Alonso and Hamilton would generally come out on top over their team mates. Vettel and Kimi strike me as very similar in that regard. They know exactly what they like and want from their car. The characteristics of corner entry especially. If it was possible and feasible for them to set any car up to suit exactly what they need, then they are not at a disadvantage. The problem is that the regulations change, tyres change etc and as both those drivers are finding out this year, they've gone the whole season without being able to find the setup solution. Maybe there simply isn't an ideal solution for the design of the car. Not only that, but for some tracks the conditions change significantly during the race. So a car setup perfectly at the start of the race may have balance shift significantly during the course of the race. The adaptable drivers have fantastic race pace because they are constantly adapting to these changes and extracting the best pace lap after lap.

[notsofast]

... if you put each of them in 10 different cars...

That's a brilliant idea to spice up F1! With 10 constructors and 20 races, let each driver race each constructor's car twice during the season. Let's see who wins the WDC and the WCC.

[jurinius]

... in my opinion Kvyat has been a bit overrated this season - but that is another topic.
I've been surprised all weekend that Pirelli didn't bring the super soft tire. I mean really these are the tires we had at Spa!

Yeah Kvyat overrated (what 's your reason ?) -> another topic... They explained why they didn't provide supersofts because of curve 3 become risky !
http://www.livef1.it/en/technique/tires ... Dlp6nWx15Q

[BanMeToo]

Vettel starting to reveal himself as an ordinary driver.

You must think Raikkonen an ordinary driver too. And I can't fathom how low your opinion of Mark Webber must be. Driving style and confidence in the behavior of a car plays a large part in all this. I think maybe you have oversimplified things a little. Then.... in my opinion Kvyat has been a bit overrated this season - but that is another topic.

I've been surprised all weekend that Pirelli didn't bring the super soft tire. I mean really these are the tires we had at Spa!

It's also a shame for Bottas in Q3. He could have coasted through the last corner and still had Nico

Many drivers are very quick when the car suits them perfectly. However, the drivers that stand out above the rest are the ones that can extract the maximum or close to the maximum out of any car. This is where Kimi, Vettel and Jenson don't measure up to the likes of Alonso or Hamilton. Would I say with confidence that Alonso would have been quicker than Kimi in the 2005 McLaren or that Hamilton faster than Vettel in the 2011 Red Bull? No - maybe they would have been slower, but not by a large amount.

Good points. I feel that Vettel has a larger operating window and is a less picky driver than Button. Suppose I don't have much to back that up (and this season actually shows a little bit of the opposite). I think we need to see another year or two of non-EBD Vettel to know more. Sorry to turn this into yin&yang.

[Kingshark]

RB with a merc engine would wipe the floor with merc similarly to what merc is doing now.

I can't believe that this nonsense is still floating around.

Mercedes has wiped the floor with Red Bull at every circuit from Monaco to Monza this season.

[BanMeToo]

... in my opinion Kvyat has been a bit overrated this season - but that is another topic.
I've been surprised all weekend that Pirelli didn't bring the super soft tire. I mean really these are the tires we had at Spa!

Yeah Kvyat overrated (what 's your reason ?) -> another topic... They explained why they didn't provide supersofts because of curve 3 become risky !
http://www.livef1.it/en/technique/tires ... Dlp6nWx15Q

I don't know where to post it. Vergne has an extra retirement compared to Kvyat, yet holds far more points (and Vergne doesn't only score his points when Kvyat retires.) Additionally, Kvyat has throughout the year shown us a number of rookie errors. Let me make it clear that I do not think Kvyat is poor driver. He's definitely talented. I simply think that some have rated him too highly, and Red Bull rushed his promotion.

[Raleigh]

Vettel starting to reveal himself as an ordinary driver.

You must think Raikkonen an ordinary driver too. And I can't fathom how low your opinion of Mark Webber must be. Driving style and confidence in the behavior of a car plays a large part in all this. I think maybe you have oversimplified things a little. Then.... in my opinion Kvyat has been a bit overrated this season - but that is another topic.

Ordinary by F1 standards is still quite impressive.

Myself, I think Vettel is above the ordinary, but not by as much as being a 4 times world champion would suggest.

[spin1/2]

Bottom line remains. Renault is bad, and RB with a merc engine would wipe the floor with merc similarly to what merc is doing now.

That would be an exaggeration. RB-Merc would be comparable with Merc-Merc.
Merc-Merc have got everything perfect - engine, downforce, and setup. That displays in all aspects - straight line speed, cornering, traction and braking.
RBR in comparison lack straight line speed, and traction to an extent. Traditionally RBR have lacked straight line speed, but they compensated that with superior cornering and traction. They do not have those two advantages now.
Over the past few years, we saw Merc bringing in engineers. It has paid off now.

Traction limited circuits should be neutral to all PUs.

Traction is not completely dependent on car setup. Traction is partly dependent on the engine. Here are my supporting reasons -
1. Williams have been stronger on start-stop circuits, than ones with sweeping corners and high speed corners. They do not have great aero or setup, but benefit from traction at these circuits.
(Although we should also account for tyre wear and high temperatures at few of these circuits that have slowed them.)

2. Last season, Red Bull were running clever torque maps to assist with traction. Not just with exhaust blowing, but also directly with the torque during corner exit.

The better integration of the various components on the Merc unit not only gives them peak power for straight line speed, but also controlled torque during traction and cornering.

Sochi is not a circuit where Renault PU is going to be a BIG handicap. This is a hgh downforce circuit, along with one good long straight.

Sochi is high DF, but it is not high speed like Suzuka or Silverstone. It is more like a traditional street circuit - start-stop nature, 90 degree corners. Like Singapore, Abu Dhabi. The Merc engine provides a noticeable benefit here.

[NathanOlder]

RB with a merc engine would wipe the floor with merc similarly to what merc is doing now.

I can't believe that this nonsense is still floating around.

Mercedes has wiped the floor with Red Bull at every circuit from Monaco to Monza this season.

Just ignore it. Its the same old rubbish from this fella. He comes across as one of those fans that will say they did a good job despite making shocking errors and big cock ups. He only see's Red Bull as the best. Despite not being the fastest Renault powered team here.

One day he will realise we are all laughing at his comments rather than taking them seriously.

[SiLo]

With that huge run to the first corner, I get the feeling sitting in 2nd or third could be an advantage on the first lap. I really hope Bottas gets Rosberg at the start though, I don't think either of them have the pace to race Hamilton but a nice duel between the two would be fun to watch.

[SectorOne]

Let´s steer this back to Sochi instead.