Valve overlap

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
SoftBatch
SoftBatch
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Ferrari was running 60 Valve V12s in F1 as late as '93. Ferrari using F1 tech in their road cars is why the F50, 355, and 360s all had five valves per cylinder.

djones
djones
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Joined: 17 Mar 2005, 15:01

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"Toyota were successful with their 20valve 4AGE's in the late nineties producing 165 BHP from a 1600cc engine at around 8000 rpm"

Honda were getting 185 BHP from a 16v 1.6 N/A at the same time. (just for comparision)

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pRo
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Joined: 29 May 2006, 09:08

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djones wrote:"Toyota were successful with their 20valve 4AGE's in the late nineties producing 165 BHP from a 1600cc engine at around 8000 rpm"

Honda were getting 185 BHP from a 16v 1.6 N/A at the same time. (just for comparision)
Toyota introduced the 20 valve 4A-GE in 1991, not late nineties. It made 165hp@7800rpm in stock form and was 1587cc. It never really got popular among tuners/racers, who got more out of the 16 valve version, the best ones being around 250hp.

In late nineties Toyota went back to 4 valves/cylinder for their N/A flagship and got 192hp@7800rpm out of 2ZZ-GE 1796cc engine.
Formula 1, 57, died Thursday, Sept. 13, 2007
Born May 13, 1950, in Silverstone, United Kingdom
Will be held in the hearts of millions forever
Rest In Peace, we will not forget you

djones
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That's not bad for early 90's then.

In the late 90's Honda were doing 195 (might have been 200) from it's Japanese spec 1.8 in the DC2

Both seem to follow each other in the high rev/high BHP race but most of the time it seems to be Honda infront.

Did Toyota ever make a competitior for the 2.0 240 BHP S2000 engine??

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pRo
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djones wrote:Both seem to follow each other in the high rev/high BHP race but most of the time it seems to be Honda infront.
That's true. Sometimes Toyota has the edge for a while, but usually Honda is on top. 8)

Did Toyota ever make a competitior for the 2.0 240 BHP S2000 engine??
No, not really. The closest would be the Dual VVT-i 3S-GE from late nineties, which had 210hp from 1998cc. But that's basically just an updated version of an engine introduced in 1985. It seems to be fairly easy to get nice power out of it, but in stock form it's just 210 and nowhere near the S2k.
Formula 1, 57, died Thursday, Sept. 13, 2007
Born May 13, 1950, in Silverstone, United Kingdom
Will be held in the hearts of millions forever
Rest In Peace, we will not forget you

Dantheman
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I wonder how much clearance there is between piston and the valves when they are open in an F1 engine?

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Tom
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I wonder how much clearance there is between piston and the valves when they are open in an F1 engine?
It can be less then 1mm in some diesel engines, I rekon F1 engines will be very similar.
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Dantheman
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I'm guessing the closer the better as it helps "squeeze" out the exhaust gasses. This is just a guess so please dont shoot me if I'm wrong.

riff_raff
riff_raff
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Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

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"Do F1 engines have any valve overlap?"

Yup. And lots of it. Probably in excess of 80 crankshaft degrees. This is possible due to the high level of acoustic tuning in the intake and exhaust pipes.

jlcortex
jlcortex
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Joined: 09 Jun 2007, 13:40

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i am designing a motogp-F1 style engine, it is only a personal project at the moment.

i have making some cam design with finger follower and i get a strange cam profile:

Image

Image

Do you have data about cams profile of f1 engine:

Duration?
Lift?
maximum opening and closing velocity? I am using near to 0.3 mm/degree for my first calculations

Any idea about finger design?
it is better a long finger or short finger?

thanks
jlcortex
http://www.sportdevices.com/jlcortex/

SZ
SZ
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Joined: 21 May 2007, 11:29

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plenty of overlap. you'd be slowing the intake charge unreasonably beyond certain (F1) engine speeds to the detriment of volumetric efficiency if you had no scavenging/overlap - flow inertia is simply too great.

you'll never get cam specs off a current engine design as you'd be a few calculations away from getting good estimates of valve size, inlet harmonics, port lengths, bore size, thus stroke size, etc... no way never. your best bet is to look up photos of 5 year old or so engine components that get sold off for memorabilia's sake and make a qualitative estimate on what the cam specs are from the photo.

i'd personally just build a 1-D gas dynamic model (some good freeware programs around for this) and play with the specs until you're there. the challenge then is deconstructing a mechanical solution that (a) works and (b) meets your dynamic aims for factors that affect the gas model.

e.g. know what you want your design to do then work on the solution.

that said there's a lot to consider in interactions between cam profile/effects and inlet/exhaust characteristics. far more variables in getting a working cam profile than what you'd pull of someone else's work, you'd need information on the whole picture to make it work decisively.

from your website jlcortex you seem to have an idea of what's involved... interestingly you're serious about building it. i have some small experience in high performance single cylinder engines... 18kRPM is very ambitious!

PS: this...
The advantages of a five valve head are that if you reduce the size of each valve, they can be lighter and therefore accelerate/decelerate quicker. Having 3 intake valves means you can have the same valve intake area but have lighter valves.
...is completely wrong.

tuj
tuj
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Joined: 15 Jun 2007, 15:50

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Virtually ALL piston engines have valve overlap. The effects of scavenging and inertial flow are quite great. The only time that overlap can be a determinant is in certain types of turbo tuning in which you want to capture as much of the intake charge as possible, rather than blowing it out the exhaust. Some take the opposite approach in the same situation, and are willing to waste much intake charge to try to cool the exhaust side, or avoid dealing with the exact closing times to maximize filling.

The dimples on the valve reliefs on the BMW engine I believe are there to provide a measure of clearance from the center of the valve face (which may or may not be sodium filled). AFAIK, the compression ratios are so high that the rod slightly stretches under load and the piston actually makes very very slight contact with the head at the top of the rev range. Therefore the extra dimples in the relief are there to prevent preignition.

Carlos
Carlos
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Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
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jlcortex Welcome to the F1T forum. I admire your designs and site featuring your work.

Just some opinions - Your crankcase design and production is almost complete - so perhaps my input may be constructive concerning head design. The intake and exhaust angles are within current design standards - the intact port tact angle is appropriate - the exhaust port may be excessively curved - I would suggest a port angle closer to the intake port - as the present exhaust port may be excessively "curved" resulting in a port that "shrouds" the exhaust valve which will inhibit efficency. Perhaps curve the port at its exit at the exhaust pipe area. Just some "backyard" tuner advice - for what it's worth :wink:

You have admirable machine shop facilities - but casting a head will be necessary - may I recommend a site discussing "homebuilt" casting.

http://ronreil.abana.org/design1.shtml

riff_raff
riff_raff
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jlcortex,

You can get a really cool engine simulation program from Lotus Engineering for free. It's quite sophisticated, but it will only simulate a single cylinder engine. I'm sure you'll find it useful for your project.

Download it here: http://www.lesoft.co.uk/ (it's under "freeware")

Have fun!

SZ
SZ
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Joined: 21 May 2007, 11:29

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riff_raff wrote:jlcortex,

You can get a really cool engine simulation program from Lotus Engineering for free. It's quite sophisticated, but it will only simulate a single cylinder engine. I'm sure you'll find it useful for your project.

Download it here: http://www.lesoft.co.uk/ (it's under "freeware")

Have fun!
used this extensively got gas dynamics on singles. it's very powerful.