Pleae explain the variety of F1 engine noises?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
jd4840
jd4840
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Joined: 19 Jun 2007, 18:06

Pleae explain the variety of F1 engine noises?

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Hello. Long time lurker, first time poster.
I attended my 2nd USGP this past weekend.

I'm interested in why and how the drivers make the engines make all the other strange noises.
I searched this forum and found the 'engine noise' thread but it was only talking about the loudness of the engine.

I am intriqued by the variety of noises the engines make.
Engine noises range from what appear to be multiple sonic booms, to a marble rattling in a coffee can.

For example:
During practice, when the cars stop at the end of pit road and do their practice launch, the engines sound like they are popping / booming very quickly. Then, they launch and the engines sound 'normal' again.

A similar sound happens during the race when the cars leave pit lane. For the first two gears the engine seems to rumble as opposed to scream. What do the drivers do to make the engines do that and what is phyically happening in the engine / exhaust to achieve those types of sound characteristics?

many thanks

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Lurch
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Joined: 19 Jun 2007, 17:12

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i think what your reffering to is the advanced traction control systems that the F1 cars run...

this basically measures the speed of the wheel vs the speed of the car and if the wheel is travelling quicker then they basically retard the engine...

normally this causes misfires which is the popping popping sound you hear...you normally hear it very clearly coming out of slow corners as the drivers want to get max power on the road asap...

jd4840
jd4840
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Thank you very much for the information.

We sit at the start/finish line so all we hear is the engine running wide open on the track, or the pit sounds.
I'd like to check out the infield sounds if they come back next year.

Would engine misfiring also explain the noises the engine makes as the car is sitting still at the end of pit lane prior to a launch from a stand-still? Is extra fuel sitting in the cylinders from leaving the pits, or idling too long?

The driver throttles it up, but the car just sits there popping and belching.
It makes a guttral sound as though it were a Harley Davidson motorcycle engine on steroids. :)

G-Rock
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Another thing I noticed watching an on board shot on TV is that when an F1 car shifts to its top gear, the engine seems to hesitate or misfire for a split second, (not very seamless sounding in the age of seamless shifting)
What could this be caused by? Is it maybe to cushion the transmission for longevity?
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modbaraban
modbaraban
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G-Rock wrote:Another thing I noticed watching an on board shot on TV is that when an F1 car shifts to its top gear, the engine seems to hesitate or misfire for a split second...
Maybe that's just the sound of an engine hitting the revlimiter (*tratatatatatatattrrr*) before the shift?

mx_tifoso
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jd4840 and Lurch, if no one has welcomed you guys by now, I'm glad to be the first. I'm sure you'll enjoy being members. Theres a lot of very knowledgeful people here, something you can't find in very many forums now a days.
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http://youtube.com/watch?v=cNWDNFb_KF8& ... ed&search=

This video of the F2007's launch has pretty much every single "noise" a current F1 makes. From the TC kicking in (a damp track in this video!), and very clear down-shifting. It describes itself when you are watching it. Oh yeah, it has the sounds of the 056 at idle as well. I would say it's one of the best videos I've seen when it comes to clear engine sounds. I hope it gives you guys some insight.

Notice: it skips a bit up until the 41 second mark, and then its pretty much perfect. The entire part with the actual track footage is very good.

Enjoy

mx_tifosi
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Tom
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
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A reason for the noises occuring when the car goes into top gear is perhaps the huge difference between the size of the 6th and 7th gear, its almost impossible for the engine to 'sync' the revs between the 2 gears, obviously the 7th gear would be super small for the Indy straight, but I'm not sure if they're allowed to chasnge the box between Montreal because they probably won't reach 7th on the street circuit so it might be best to compromise between the first 6 and have a special 7th for USA.

Also, I hear rallying isn't big in the states (our man Higgins from an island barely 40mile sq came over one day and wooped all your asses in his first season I seem to recall) but if you ever get a chance to sit in the paddock and listen to all the WRC cars idling, its painful yet beautiful at the same time.
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

modbaraban
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Tom wrote:...I'm not sure if they're allowed to chasnge the box between Montreal because they probably won't reach 7th on the street circuit so it might be best to compromise between the first 6 and have a special 7th for USA.
There isn't a '1 gearbox per XX races' rule luckily. They can replace it even during the GP if necessary.

mx_tifosi

thanx for the link about 'launch control'

mx_tifoso
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Tom wrote:they probably won't reach 7th on the street circuit so it might be best to compromise between the first 6 and have a special 7th for USA.
You mean to say that during Monaco and Canada they didn't use a 7th gear because they are street circuits? Does it apply to OZ? Its a street circuit as well. Street circuits have tight and twisty layouts, with no noticable long straights, that is what sets them apart.

Or what did you mean?

Was 7th gear there but insignificant and useless, or was not there at all? :?

Sorry to kind of go off topic.^

@ modbaraban: Your welcome.
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modbaraban
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no no no, guys... using any less than allowed 7 gears is a significant loss of torque having in mind the narrower efficient rev-range of V8s :wink:

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Ciro Pabón
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jd4840 wrote:Would engine misfiring also explain the noises the engine makes as the car is sitting still at the end of pit lane prior to a launch from a stand-still? Is extra fuel sitting in the cylinders from leaving the pits, or idling too long?

The driver throttles it up, but the car just sits there popping and belching.
It makes a guttral sound as though it were a Harley Davidson motorcycle engine on steroids. :)
No, it does not explain that noises. There is a thread on valve overlap here. That's the origin of that noise (when idling).

When on a wet track or accelerating on the exit of a curve, you hear the misfiring of traction control, as Lurch explained. That's a different thing.

I quote that thread:
Now, picture for a moment an engine on the first stroke: the cylinder is going down, the intake valve is open and the air-gas mix is entering.

If you close the intake valve just when the piston reaches the bottom of its movement (what is called "BDC" or "Bottom Dead Center"), you are going to stop the inrush of air right when is entering the cylinder at its highest speed.

The air has inertia, like almost anything in this world. So, you left the valve open a little more time, with the final effect that, even while the cylinder is moving up, on the compression stroke, the air is still entering the cylinder because of that inertia, giving you a little extra mixture inside the cylinder.

The opposite is true on the exhaust stroke: even when the piston has moved away from the TDC (top dead center) and it's starting to move down, (theoretically it has started the intake stroke), the air is exiting at top speed and it "pulls" a little extra air out.

Finally, when you overlap the exit and intake of air, the exiting air helps to "pull" in the intake air.

This effect of the "inertia of the air" is more noticeable at high rpms, simply because the air is moving faster. This is why the overlap of the valves is greater in race engines, that develop ultra-high rpms.

The "magic" of valve design and manufacturing resides in closing the damn thing right when the air stops moving across it, not when the cylinder is at an arbitrary "theoretical" position at TDC or BDC. This theoretical position is good only for extremely low rpm engines.

Incidently, this is the reason why it is so hard to keep a racing engine at low rpms (just hear a drag car when it is idle: the engine sound is extremely uneven) and it is so easy to stall a F1 car on the grid or on the pits.

This is also the reason why it is forbidden to have variable timing camshafts, like the hydraulic or electric systems devised for "normal" cars. Actually, I don't understand the reasoning behind it (NOTE: behind forbidding variable valve timing), but if you had variable camshafts, F-1 engines would develop even higher accelerations from a standing start: the engine valve overlapping would be optimum at any engine speed.
Here you have the two images taken from the animation at "How Stuff Works", comparing the valve overlap on a regular engine and on a racing (or higher rpm) engine:

Regular engine, small overlap of valves
Image

Racing engine, huge overlap of valves
Image

So, the irregular sound of idling engines in racing (for example, have you heard a dragster idling?) is because the valve overlap is less than optimum and the engines grunts, rattles, misfires, backfires, rocks and rolls. :)

It needs to be at high rpm to perform well (like some stressed executives at the office... ;)).

About the noise when shifting pointed out by G-Rock, I have no idea. It could be that the engine is adjusting its rpm to sinchronize the gearbox (to make the input axle from the engine run at the "same" rpms as the output axle to the wheels). Please, don't trust much this last explanation that I took from the "Department of Ideas You Take Out of Your Hat". :)
Ciro

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Lurch
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Cheers Ciro...

was thinking to myself last night it couldn't of been traction control if they were practicing starts as your not allowed traction/launch control anymore...

with TC being banned again next year...have they worked out how to police it yet??

modbaraban
modbaraban
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Lurch wrote:with TC being banned again next year...have they worked out how to police it yet??
Microsoft ECUs should do the trick :wink:
Image

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Tom
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modbaraban said:
There isn't a '1 gearbox per XX races' rule luckily. They can replace it even during the GP if necessary.
Sorry, thats where I got confused, I was under the impression that the engine and gearbox had to last 2 races, sorry for the confusion.

I still suspect that for Indianapolis it might have something to do with a huge jump in gear size as presumably 6th gear has to be a compromise for the infield and 7th is designed purely for the straight. Based on an F12002 demo I have, where the only circuit you can race is Indy there is a huge difference between 6th and 7th compared to any other two consecutive gears in the default Indy setup.

I'm probably wrong but its worth considering.
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

jd4840
jd4840
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Joined: 19 Jun 2007, 18:06

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Thank you all for the information, and thanks for the welcome mx_tifosi. :)