RPM and speed

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
West
West
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Joined: 07 Jan 2004, 00:42
Location: San Diego, CA

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I guess you're asking that the slipstreaming car is running at lower RPMs, even though achieving the same velocity as the car in front (i.e. same rotational velocity of wheels, etc.) I'm sure everybody's covered it; I dunno if it's been mentioned but there is less resistance for the engine to fight. Dave's example explains that the cars will be running at steady state so there will be no loss or gain of ground, even if there is a differential in RPM. Running in wake can only get you so far.

I'm sure there's a way to break the limiter... people tend to "get around" traction control; I don't see how breaking the limiter is impossible.
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pRo
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Joined: 29 May 2006, 09:08

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dumrick wrote:There's other thing: with a limiter, do teams choose the last gear of a car to be slightly longer than needed to allow for higher speeds while overtaking in drafting or the speed differential is achieved merely by faster acceleration of the car behind, that reaches the limiter earlier?
I'm quite sure they set the gearing so that you only reach the rev limit on highest gear when you're drafting. Sometimes you can see the tacho on the screen during a race and it never hits 19k on highest gear in normal driving. I haven't seen the tacho during succesfull drafting, but I can only imagine it gets very close to 19k during it.

The point about faster acceleration is also valid and I'm sure it's partially that too. But it doesn't explain all of it.

West wrote:I'm sure there's a way to break the limiter... people tend to "get around" traction control; I don't see how breaking the limiter is impossible.
Of course there is. I have no idea which ways would pass FIA inspections, but there are many ways to get past it.

I've done some tuning on (streetable) Toyotas, which have a reputation of non-modable ecus. And often a standalone ecu is out of the question, when you're on a budget. One of the biggest issue is the stock limiter, which many say is impossible to overtake without changing the ecu. But there are at least two ways.

Say you have a limiter at 6k rpm. That's 100 revs/second, or a rev every 1/100 second. Say you're getting a rev pulse every 1/100 of a second. Any faster and the ecu cuts the fun. Lets also say the ECU has a 10MHz crystal. It means 100 000 ticks for 1/100 seconds.

I'm sure many already figured out where I'm going.

1) Change the oscillator to faster one. ECU has no idea of real time, it's only counting the crystal ticks. Say you go from 10MHz to 12Mhz, an increase of 20%. In real life you're still getting rev pulses every 1/100 s, but the ECU sees it's taking 120k ticks between rev pulses and believes you're at 10M/120k*60=5000rpm . You can now up the real life revs by 20% into 7200rpm, which is 120 revs/second or 1/120 second, but with the faster 12M crystal, the ECU is now counting 100k ticks between rev pulses and thinks the rev limit is there. The ECU sees the 20% up as going from 5000rpm into 6000rpm.

2) Limit the rev output to ECU into rev limit. You need a box between the ecu wiring. If the rev limit is 6k rpm, the box just passes any rev info below that straight to the ecu, but anything over that and it just lets the ecu see the 6k rpm.

(needless to say, but in both cases you have to consider what happens to ecu outputs, like injector open times and ignition)


I'm sure the engineers have to get more creative in F1 and FIA blocks basic things like these though. :D
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Ogami musashi
Ogami musashi
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Joined: 13 Jun 2007, 22:57

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West wrote:I guess you're asking that the slipstreaming car is running at lower RPMs, even though achieving the same velocity as the car in front (i.e. same rotational velocity of wheels, etc.) I'm sure everybody's covered it; I dunno if it's been mentioned but there is less resistance for the engine to fight. Dave's example explains that the cars will be running at steady state so there will be no loss or gain of ground, even if there is a differential in RPM. Running in wake can only get you so far.

I'm sure there's a way to break the limiter... people tend to "get around" traction control; I don't see how breaking the limiter is impossible.

The thing is that, if two cars run at the same speed, be the following in slipstream or not, it will have the same RPM, and if i understood correctly same RPM means also same wheels RPM (since it is mechanicaly linked) ,except maybe if differentials are present?

RH1300S
RH1300S
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Joined: 06 Jun 2005, 15:29

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You are still struggling with this aren't you ;)

If the two cars have different final drive gearing - they can run at the same speed, but at different RPM (assuming they can both make enough power to achieve the speed at different RPM).

RPM is the number of times the crankshaft does a full circle in a minute (revolutions per minute). The crankshaft is connected to the gearbox. The gear box has a number of ratios which change the rotating speed at the final drive (if you like final drive is at the wheels - because that's where it all ends up).

The final gearing of a car is the gearbox ratio combined with the final drive ratio, combined with the diameter of the driven tyres. Multiply this number against any engine RPM and you will get a certain speed for that rpm and that gear.

As said before - this is a fixed connection (we will assume the clutch is engaged and the car does not have any wheel-spin).

If you are asking if a car can go faster in the slipstream of another car - yes it can but only if it has some revs to spare. If it has run out of revs - that's it - that is as fast as it can go (run out of revs can be on the rev limiter - or on the limit of what the engine will take before it spreads it's insides all over the track - doesn't matter).

It's very simple - I think you are over complicating things (or maybe we don't understand the question ;))

Don't worry about the differentials unless the car has one wheel spinning at a different speed to the other.

For you to understand the answer - just think about a car running normally on a straight flat road.

Ogami musashi
Ogami musashi
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Joined: 13 Jun 2007, 22:57

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Thank you but i think i did get it right isn't it?

For two identical cars (with same gear ratios) the RPMs will be the same no?

If not identical of course, there're can be differencies.

My reply was in the case of two identical cars (tough i didn't mentionned that, my apologies).

RH1300S
RH1300S
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Joined: 06 Jun 2005, 15:29

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Ogami musashi wrote:Thank you but i think i did get it right isn't it?

For two identical cars (with same gear ratios) the RPMs will be the same no?

If not identical of course, there're can be differencies.

My reply was in the case of two identical cars (tough i didn't mentionned that, my apologies).
Yup 8)