This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
Jonnycraig wrote:
Mentioned at the same time that the paddock rumour is that Merc won't supply them with anything because of the way RB protested over the 2013 tyre tests....
Karma.
Also interesting that the situation Red Bull could find themselves in if (possible) Renaults 2016 PU is superior to the 2015 Ferrari.
In the Sky Suzuka post race program when they were interviewing Ron Dennis about the token system, Ron said that with the token system they can develop how ever many engines they want and can spend how ever much money they want only when they want to introduce a new spec do they cash in the tokens. So clearly the token system does not reduce costs.
Cold Fussion wrote:In the Sky Suzuka post race program when they were interviewing Ron Dennis about the token system, Ron said that with the token system they can develop how ever many engines they want and can spend how ever much money they want only when they want to introduce a new spec do they cash in the tokens. So clearly the token system does not reduce costs.
Cold Fussion wrote:In the Sky Suzuka post race program when they were interviewing Ron Dennis about the token system, Ron said that with the token system they can develop how ever many engines they want and can spend how ever much money they want only when they want to introduce a new spec do they cash in the tokens. So clearly the token system does not reduce costs.
That's been known since forever.
There's a few people in this thread who have been arguing against this for a while.
In one sense, the sight of two Mercedes disappearing at the front of the field is not exactly new. But some viewed FOM’s coverage priorities as Bernie Ecclestone sending Mercedes a message that their inevitable championship success won’t receive the attention it merits unless they fall into line
I wonder if Bernie is trying to push Mercedes into supplying Red Bull with engines afterall. Bernie is of the opinion these V6 power units are killing F1 - as is the Mercedes domination. He want competition. He doesn't want to lose Red Bull and Toro Rosso. Maybe he is sending a warning sign that if Mercedes want to be seen, they need to race others rather than drive all by themself at the front, and thus need a competing team that can match them.
In one sense, the sight of two Mercedes disappearing at the front of the field is not exactly new. But some viewed FOM’s coverage priorities as Bernie Ecclestone sending Mercedes a message that their inevitable championship success won’t receive the attention it merits unless they fall into line
I wonder if Bernie is trying to push Mercedes into supplying Red Bull with engines afterall. Bernie is of the opinion these V6 power units are killing F1 - as is the Mercedes domination. He want competition. He doesn't want to lose Red Bull and Toro Rosso. Maybe he is sending a warning sign that if Mercedes want to be seen, they need to race others rather than drive all by themself at the front, and thus need a competing team that can match them.
Dietrich Mateschitz has always been more than reluctant to Mercedes. " yes ----- but but but"
So there you are. Paybacktime... Their own fault ... And who wants to provide you with products when looking at how they have treated Renault.. http://www.motorsport-magazin.com/forme ... s-motoren/
I am starting to think that RB should leave F1 if RB are going to bash their partners and hold the sport hostage when they are not #1. I can't comprehend the sense of entitlement required to be upset, or even surprised, that other teams (manufacturers) are not leaping forward to provide RB with their engines. It would be an arrangement that might help RB, but will certainly hurt the other team.
If it no longer makes sense for Renault and didn't make sense for Merc, then I don't see how it will suddenly make sense for Ferrari to become RB's engine supplier. It is not like RB just wants an engine to be competitive on the front half of the grid (2015 spec). RB wants everything required to be on the exact same level at the manufacturers' works team.
Perhaps Ferrari and Merc should also charter a private jet to send their top engineers to Japan for the summer break while asking Honda to reimburse them for the costs of a coach ticket.
Wazari wrote:
There's a saying in Japan, He might be higher than testicles on a giraffe...........
Ever since last season I've noticed that Red Bull get very petulant when things don't go their way. F1 has always been cyclical, teams will dominate for a few seasons because of a great bit of technical wizardry (coupled with a on form driver) then fade back a bit. (Williams is a great case in point). Then the next team has a turn at the front. Every team bar Red Bull understands this.
I'm sorry to say I wouldn't be upset if Red Bull do pull out. I'd of course be sad for those that might lose their jobs etc, but RB don't seem to have an understanding on how to treat their partners. All we can hope is someone steps in and buys them. For all the problems VW are having, it might still be a good way to reduce the toxicity of the brand.
I can't understand how an F1 fan can wish for less top teams. Isn't that the whole idea of why we watch the races, to see top drivers battling it out in top machinery?
Also, I can't understand people criticizing their attitude. Yes, some comments about Renault from the past are not extremely nice, but we need to remember they were actually paying 40 million euros for those engines that blew up and were nowhere. There's also the fact that we really don't know what was Renault's answer to the initial, private criticism.
Regarding Red Bull holding F1 hostage. Who in their right mind, after investing hundreds of millions in developing cars, would just walk away without trying everything in their power to make things work again? Problem is, making things work is not in Red Bull's power. F1 is cyclical, but in order for a team to be back on top, it needs to do something. It's not a matter of waiting for things to be alright again. For RB, that means finding a PU that is competitive. Their relationship with the previous supplier has never been a deterrent for Mercedes of Ferrari supplying them with engines, we know that much, it's the actual force of the RB team that is stopping them from getting engine parity with any works team. There's simply no way around that and they are playing their last card now: power of Bernie.
I, for one, think that F1 would be much, much poorer without Red Bull and Torro Rosso and, let's be honest, there's not exactly a queue forming up for new top teams to enter the sport either.
Last season didn't Renault supply Lotus and Caterham? highly likely that I could be wrong here but I think I remember an interview with one of those teams on Sky where they said the engine's weren't giving the same output as the RBR and even STR PU's.
If this is the case then surely RBR and being treated just the same now as a customer to how they as Renault Works Team treated Renault customers last year.
Sounds like Ferrari are playing games as well. Yes, they are prepared to deliver Ferrari PU's to the Red Bull teams, but only 2015 versions of the PU, while Vettel and Kimi will get driver specific engines. Even Sauber, Manor and Haas will get the 2016 version of the PU.
Red Bull pretty much shot themselves in the foot with their public outcries. Who the hell would want to give them an engine next year after their continuous bashing of Renault this year?
Yes, we know the engine isn't that great, no need to continuously bring it up every 5 minutes like a cry baby.
I think they will leave the sport, and I believe it's all their own doing. If they had a little more humility and sense, they could have come out of this much better than they have. They simply could have done it all behind closed doors and just announced that because the engine didn't meet specific performance related contractual obligations, they are terminating the contract with Renault. But they didn't, and now they have to deal with the consequences.
I understand the reasoning of Ferrari and Mercedes doing so. They consider the engine part of the effort the team puts in to get a competitive edge. It basically is the same as Ferrari asking for EBD tech from RedBull in 2013.
However, In my view it takes priority that the field does not shrink any further. Especially since Red Bull brings an immense promotion oppertunities for F1. If this particular companies leaves, it'll be a very heavy short AND long term blow.
A case where competition will destroy the sport. F1 needs Red Bull.
Does F1 need to relax engine develpment limitations?
