Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

[Cold Fussion]

You're wrong if you think the two situations are even remotely similar. Red Bull bought a factory team and then through investment, they were able to sign the right people to make that factory team competitive. Clearly at the time Red Bull felt that the additional investment into owning a team outright was a better return then simply being a title sponsor, which is surely vindicated by how comparatively little exposure Infinity/Renault got under the Red Bull team. As a constructor Red Bull already got a massive amount of exposure, especially if they're competitive, becoming an engine builder as well will only marginally increase that exposure while doubling their budget. What's more, a year or two ago, Red Bull was turning a profit on their F1 operation, as an engine builder as well that's unlikely to be the case.

[zeph]

Am I the only one who thinks that Renault (if they don't pull out altogether) will have a vastly improved PU next season?

Last year they weren't all that bad, if not as good as Mercedes. And to remind you, they implemented massive changes to the PU over the winter at RedBull's request, so when that backfired I can understand why they feel they got a disproportional share of the blame. Not to mention that RBR (and STR) were de facto works teams, as only customers.

I really believe that Renault would have been RBR's best option for next year, but if the Lotus buyback happens, all bets are off.

[FoxHound]

You're completely delusional if you think the two situations are even remotely similar.

I think they're similar, by your "professional" assessment I'm now delusional apparently...

The situations are similar to me because an outside entity with no relevance to the invested product came in with no expertise in a highly technical field.
Is that a stretch of the imagination? I'd call that a fact.

They invested huge sums to gain competitiveness.
Again, a pretty damning fact.

None of the aforementioned investments has anything at all to do with Red Bull the product.
Yup, a fact.

If there are any more diagnosis regards my mental state, inbox me.

[ME4ME]

I think they're similar, by your "professional" assessment I'm now delusional apparently...

Want me to give you a second opinion?

Seriously though. The RB-engine won't happen, they've said so themselves. Let's focus what's right in front of us again shall we. I think today's statement by Pirelli is worth discussing.

[FoxHound]

I think they're similar, by your "professional" assessment I'm now delusional apparently...

Want me to give you a second opinion?

Seriously though. The RB-engine won't happen, they've said so themselves. Let's focus what's right in front of us again shall we. I think today's statement by Pirelli is worth discussing.

I agree it won't happen (anytime soon), but not because Red Bull cannot do it.
It's because they don't want to do it.

My sanity should never come into question, it never existed in the first place.

[The_table]

Red Bull Honda anyone?
Maybe McLaren would not mind if RBR become a customer team? (as a temporary solution)

I also think that toro rosso was a BIG part of red bull's succes, RBR seem to be the only top team who are actually only using drivers out of their young drivers programme.

[Juzh]

Am I the only one who thinks that Renault (if they don't pull out altogether) will have a vastly improved PU next season?

Yes.

Last year they weren't all that bad, if not as good as Mercedes

Am I reading this right? This is how far we've come around here?
-1 for factually incorrect.

And to remind you, they implemented massive changes to the PU over the winter at RedBull's request, so when that backfired I can understand why they feel they got a disproportional share of the blame.

As opposed to renault's mentality of sitting back and just be complacent? What's the alternative? exactly? RB pushed for development, renault were incompetent and couldn't deliver.

[zeph]

Am I the only one who thinks that Renault (if they don't pull out altogether) will have a vastly improved PU next season?

Yes.

Last year they weren't all that bad, if not as good as Mercedes

Am I reading this right? This is how far we've come around here?
-1 for factually incorrect.

And to remind you, they implemented massive changes to the PU over the winter at RedBull's request, so when that backfired I can understand why they feel they got a disproportional share of the blame.

As opposed to renault's mentality of sitting back and just be complacent? What's the alternative? exactly? RB pushed for development, renault were incompetent and couldn't deliver.

Factually incorrect? I dunno, I seem to remember RBR-Renault being the only team other than Mercedes winning races last year and finishing second in the WCC. I'd say the PU was much better than Ferrari's, and second only to the Merc.

But maybe my saying "if not as good as Mercedes" could be misinterpreted, so let me clarify that it was meant to convey "Last year they weren't all that bad, although not as good as Mercedes".

Their PU in 2014 was absolutely better than Ferrari's, but at RBR's request they chased a "size-zero" concept (like McHonda) for aero reasons. This backfired, no doubt, but I reckon they know now why it is not working and should be able to figure out how to proceed.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that Renault was complacently leaning back?

Their V8 was comfortably competitive (4xWDC/WCC), yet they were among the most vocal proponents of the new engine regulations. Is that complacent?

And the fact that they are even contemplating to return as a works team doesn't strike me as a sign of complacency either.


In conclusion, my view is that a lot of assumptions are being made based on one less competitive season. If Renault chooses to stay in F1 (and I hope they do), I don't doubt they'll bounce back.

[Juzh]

They won when merc self-destructed. Never on pace. Renault PU itself had nothing to do with those wins. All other merc customers were and remain pure garbage in terms of chassis and aero.
"although not NEARLY as good as mercedes" is a more valid statement.
It was better than ferrari by a slight margin in some areas and weaker in others, overall I'd agree it was still better.

Please post sources to red bull's "size zero" requests.

As to your last paragraph:
renault said RB pushed them into aggressive development, which in the end resulted in a worse PU than last year. Presumably because they knew renault is not doing enough to close the gap, otherwise this wouldn't be needed. What was renault's plan in the first place anyway?

[djos]

Would hate to see RB leave. Not good for the Sport of F1 in many ways.

....yet I get the overall impression from all of this whining by RB that whoever it was that said it many years ago was correct.

Red Bull is an energy drink company, not an F1 Team. No long term history in the sport and no long term commitment. If they aren't the first place team, they're going to take their ball and go home.

Wish it were different, but that's sure how it seems to me.

RedBull have been involved in F1 since the mid 90's Iirc as a major sauber sponsor so to say they have no history is being very unfair.

The RedBull team itself was Stewart grand prix and then jaguar so again the team itself has pedigree.

The other thing I take issue with is saying if RedBull aren't winning they don't want to be in F1. This is a major load of bollocks, RedBull are fine with not winning all the time, what they not fine with is having no chance of winning due to being held back by an uncompetitive PU e.g. The Renault PU which couldn't fight its way out of a single ply wet paper bag!

For a company like RedBull, competition is everything and winning is great but it's the competition that their brand is built on. If they can't compete at or around the front then they have no reason to stay.

[djos]

It's been rumored for a few years now that Torro Rosso would be sold if a potential buyer could be found. Considering that Torro Rosso are a competent midfield team that gets plenty of air time and buyer still hasn't been interested would suggest to me that selling Torro Rosso will not be fast or easy.


<snip>

A competitive engine program is probably in the realms of 200-300 million per year, not to mention the huge capital costs of setting up a competitive engine operation from scratch and the multi year lead time in producing said competitive engine. An engine program will be essentially duplicating Red Bull technologies in engine form. It doesn't make sense for them to start an engine program unless they have some long term plans of turning into an car manufacturer.

My thoughts exactly.

The only real reason I can think of that could justify an engine program would be they are planning to front for an OEM and retain control of the IP and development so they never get caught in a Renault situation again. It's still drawing a very long bow imo.

[djos]

Red Bull Honda anyone?
Maybe McLaren would not mind if RBR become a customer team? (as a temporary solution)

I also think that toro rosso was a BIG part of red bull's succes, RBR seem to be the only top team who are actually only using drivers out of their young drivers programme.

I'm pretty sure Honda have stated they don't have the ability to supply anyone else atm.

[zeph]

Please post sources to red bull's "size zero" requests.

I seem to remember Abiteboul saying something to that effect early this year (not 'size zero' obviously, but PU changes to accommodate aero), but a quick google search got nothing. I'll retract that statement and if I do find that quote I'll link to it.

As to your last paragraph:
renault said RB pushed them into aggressive development, which in the end resulted in a worse PU than last year. Presumably because they knew renault is not doing enough to close the gap, otherwise this wouldn't be needed. What was renault's plan in the first place anyway?

Presumably? That is just speculation.

I don't understand why you'd think Renault is complacent, or "not doing enough to close the gap". They pushed hard for the new engine regulations, why would they not give it their all to be competitive?
RBR is their works team. Both parties said so, before they fell out. Now that RBR has irreparably damaged the relationship, Renault is actually looking to return as a full-fledged works team.

Why on Earth would you presume they are not doing all they possibly can?

[djos]

RBR is their works team. Both parties said so, before they fell out. Now that RBR has irreparably damaged the relationship, Renault is actually looking to return as a full-fledged works team.

Why on Earth would you presume they are not doing all they possibly can?

Incorrect, RedBull have been Renault's preferred team but they have never been the Renault works team.

Even if you Google "Renault works F1 team" you won't find a single article describing the the Renault/RedBull relationship this way.

Christian Horner confirmed in Japan that Renault have never even provided them with their development roadmap's, even back in the V8 days.

As a result I think it's fair to assume at the start of 2015 Renault advised RedBull of the power and torque etc of the "updated" PU and that was when RedBull told them it wasn't good enough and to come back with a more acceptable performance update which Renault then rushed and completely cocked up.

[zeph]

RBR is their works team. Both parties said so, before they fell out. Now that RBR has irreparably damaged the relationship, Renault is actually looking to return as a full-fledged works team.

Why on Earth would you presume they are not doing all they possibly can?

Incorrect, RedBull have been Renault's preferred team but they have never been the Renault works team.

Well, that's what Cyril Abiteboul called it as recently as last January.

http://www.motorme.my/interview-cyril-a ... -sport-f1/

“The relationship with Red Bull is a complex one because they are a great team, they are pure racers, they are here to perform and to win championships. Right now they are not in a position to do so because in truth our performance is such that it cannot make up the engine-related deficit with aerodynamics.

“As our works team, they are frustrated by the engine performance but to a certain degree they are part of the equation too because we have been building this performance together.

And that's not the only time Renault has referred to RBR as their works team. I remember them saying that in 2014 as well.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/renau ... orks-team/

Christian Horner confirmed in Japan that Renault have never even provided them with their development roadmap's, even back in the V8 days.

That seems unfair. Didn't they work closely together with Renault on engine maps for off-throttle EBD etc.? And I imagine there wasn't a whole lot to 'roadmap' in the 'engine-freeze' era.

Just for shits and giggles, here is Horner in 2011: http://www.crash.net/f1/news/173061/1/r ... orner.html

Horner talking that yakkity-yak now seems merely in line with RBR's current policy of blaming Renault for all their woes.


I really don't get RBR's attitude. Sure, the PU isn't great this year, but I remain convinced sticking it out with Renault would have been their best bet. Renault considered them their works team, and had every incentive to make them win.