Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

[djos]

RBR is their works team. Both parties said so, before they fell out. Now that RBR has irreparably damaged the relationship, Renault is actually looking to return as a full-fledged works team.

Why on Earth would you presume they are not doing all they possibly can?

Incorrect, RedBull have been Renault's preferred team but they have never been the Renault works team.

Well, that's what Cyril Abiteboul called it as recently as last January.

http://www.motorme.my/interview-cyril-a ... -sport-f1/

“The relationship with Red Bull is a complex one because they are a great team, they are pure racers, they are here to perform and to win championships. Right now they are not in a position to do so because in truth our performance is such that it cannot make up the engine-related deficit with aerodynamics.

“As our works team, they are frustrated by the engine performance but to a certain degree they are part of the equation too because we have been building this performance together.

And that's not the only time Renault has referred to RBR as their works team. I remember them saying that in 2014 as well.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/renau ... orks-team/

Christian Horner confirmed in Japan that Renault have never even provided them with their development roadmap's, even back in the V8 days.

That seems unfair. Didn't they work closely together with Renault on engine maps for off-throttle EBD etc.? And I imagine there wasn't a whole lot to 'roadmap' in the 'engine-freeze' era.

Horner saying that now seems merely in line with RBR's current policy of blaming Renault for all their woes.

I really don't get RBR's attitude. Sure, the PU isn't great this year, but I remain convinced sticking it out with Renault would have been their best bet. Renault considered them their works team, and had every incentive to make them win.

How do you reconcile the statements in September then:

He admitted to Germany's Auto Motor und Sport that not making Red Bull its clear focus for the new turbo V6 era was a mistake by Renault.

"Renault has tried in recent years to treat all four of its customers equally," Abiteboul said.

Doesnt sound like the were really treating RBR as a proper works team to me.

[zeph]

Link?

And I edited the previous post after you replied, but here is Horner himself again in 2011:

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/173061/1/r ... orner.html


Also, if that was said in September this year, it was long after all the disparaging remarks from RBR had begun to tear the relationship apart.

edit:

Right here on F1T, a thread about RBR as Renault's works team: http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 12&t=20896

And an interview with Horner about the whole thing:

http://www.crash.net/f1/interview/21243 ... er-qa.html

You've got the same engine partner for next year, how big a step do you feel Renault can make?

We're working very closely with Renault and Renault are doing the right things now. They've got the right people involved, they're working tremendously hard, they know what they've got to achieve and to be honest with you even if we could half the gap it would at least enable us to give Mercedes a bit of a fight.

Were there times this year where you seriously considered changing your engine partner? That these regulations required something fresh to close the gap?

Well … not really. It's very simple. We have a very long-standing relationship with Renault, we've won a lot of races with them. Mercedes would never give us an engine, Ferrari you can only ever be a customer there and it would be wrong to forget in a short space of time all the good we've achieved over the previous four or five seasons with Renault.

So what we've chosen to do is the harder route but to get more embedded, more involved in the organisation. Both Viry and Milton Keynes now are much closer together.

How much will that relationship change next year compared to this year?

It will evolve. It will evolve but it will be a much tighter involvement between Milton Keynes and Viry.

There was a management change after the summer which was very positive, and I think other aspects we're taking on more and more aspects of design and simulation in the UK. So that's only complementing the work that Renault are doing in Viry.

[djos]

Link?

And I edited the previous post after you replied, but here is Horner himself again in 2011:

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/173061/1/r ... orner.html


Also, if that was said in September this year, it was long after all the disparaging remarks from RBR had begun to tear the relationship apart.

The link was your own:

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/renau ... orks-team/

Being the factory team was clearly what RBR wanted but Abiteboul's statements from September 2014 clearly show this wasnt actually the case.

I put it to you that this declaration in Sept 2014

"So Abiteboul declared that, now, Renault's "works team is called Red Bull"."

was an attempt at damage control.

[zeph]

I see your point, not sure I agree. Especially in light of Horner's 2011 statements.

[djos]

I see your point, not sure I agree. Especially in light of Horner's 2011 statements.

It seems to me that RBR thought they were getting works status but it never eventuated, Cyril's comments late last year back that up - it also gels with Horner's claim that they've never been privy to Renault's Development plans.

I suppose an argument could be mounted on the basis of the Renault cold blowing being improved at RBR's request, but this is something RBR asked for and not something that Renault offered of their own volition so to speak.

[zeph]

I see your point, not sure I agree. Especially in light of Horner's 2011 statements.

It seems to me that RBR thought they were getting works status but it never eventuated, Cyril's comments late last year back that up - it also gels with Horner's claim that they've never been privy to Renault's Development plans.

We'll have to agree to disagree, then. I don't see Abiteboul's comments as confirmation, but rather as placating RBR at the time.
And I've linked twice to Horner saying they are the de facto Renault works team. I could provide more links to him saying the same thing, but to what end?

I suppose an argument could be mounted on the basis of the Renault cold blowing being improved at RBR's request, but this is something RBR asked for and not something that Renault offered of their own volition so to speak.

Well, supposedly it was Newey's idea (or one of his underlings, who knows) so Renault couldn't very well offer that before RedBull actually conceived of it!

[djos]

I see your point, not sure I agree. Especially in light of Horner's 2011 statements.

It seems to me that RBR thought they were getting works status but it never eventuated, Cyril's comments late last year back that up - it also gels with Horner's claim that they've never been privy to Renault's Development plans.

We'll have to agree to disagree, then. I don't see Abiteboul's comments as confirmation, but rather as placating RBR at the time.
And I've linked twice to Horner saying they are the de facto Renault works team. I could provide more links to him saying the same thing, but to what end?

Defacto Works and Works arent the same thing, the missing ingredient is the signed paperwork entering into a "works" agreement as apposed to a "customer" agreement.

But anyway, dont take my word for it, take Cyril's:

"Renault has tried in recent years to treat all four of its customers equally," Abiteboul said.

"From the perspective of Caterham, where I worked a year ago, it was nice. But for Red Bull it was counterproductive," he explained.

So Abiteboul declared that, now, Renault's "works team is called Red Bull".


Now the question you need to ask is, since when have customer teams been equal with works teams?

I suppose an argument could be mounted on the basis of the Renault cold blowing being improved at RBR's request, but this is something RBR asked for and not something that Renault offered of their own volition so to speak.

Well, supposedly it was Newey's idea (or one of his underlings, who knows) so Renault couldn't very well offer that before RedBull actually conceived of it!

Indeed.

[Phil]

I think the problem is, once a team enters so called "work status", it's foremost a term, some sort of agreement, maybe even PR. A customer with technical benefits? It's logical that various people within the team would ride the term as by the signed agreement, but to what extend that agreement also brought technical benefits is anyones guess.

As for engine supply by Honda; it's the same problem over again: lets assume Honda develop something competitive, that would be something RedBull would want. Why would Honda want to supply them if it would only hurt their "works-team" they have entered into a long term relationship with? Even if they didnt care, what would McLaren say, having just left Mercedes engines due to not wanting to be a mere customer? No... I am fairly confident that the signed agreement between McLaren and Honda includes specific clauses as to who they might be allowed to supply...

Other customer teams wont care if they are supplied a B-Spec engine. Or the engine manufacturer supplying them with a A-Spec engine running on different fuel maps, because they dont represent competition as Redbull would.

The joys of todays F1 formula that has been created...

[iotar__]

Other customer teams wont care if they are supplied a B-Spec engine. Or the engine manufacturer supplying them with a A-Spec engine running on different fuel maps, because they dont represent competition as Redbull would.

The joys of todays F1 formula that has been created...

That's wrong. Ask Pat Symonds if he doesn't care if he gets a new spec Merc engine, he just publicly said he does care and gave his reasons. Engine supplier (one team) is not the only competition in F1 for customers. For Williams the new engine might be a difference between challenging Ferrari or not. They don't have any choice, just like Lotus in '14 or Red Bull now. Do you think they didn't care about third grade engine support including hardware?

Going back to Red Bull team, another example of hypocrisy might be around the corner. They are about to vote on opening development for 2016 - tokens again. It's rumoured (I don't remember AMuS?) that Ferrari, Renault, Honda are obviously in favour, Merc won't mind for political reason and Red Bull is against it since they get older spec. It should be interesting considering arguments Red Bull were using last season to open engine development, I'm sure some historical, sporting/marketing and "dominance is bad" were mentioned. Why would it be different a year later?

From Ferrari vs RB perspective I don't know if it's a chicken or an egg. If you don't vote in favour you won't get engines or if you don't give us engines we'll block it. I don't know the dates, if a team can set the rules and leave the sport or if FIA can find another loophole.

[bauc]

Any one knows if there is a deadline by which Redbull will decide if they stay or go? I think I've heard Horner say on SkyF1 before the Japan GP race that by the end of the month (September) they should have deal in place or they are probably going to leave.... Have any one else seen this on the pre-race program?

[turbof1]

@Zeph: A works team is where engine and chassis departments are figurily speaking working under one roof. It means that these departments disclose full and all data to one another and that every decision made is in function of laptime, not in function of either solely engine performance or solely chassis performance.

Would the above description fit the renault-red bull relationship at any point during said relationship? No. Abiteboul telling it is a works team, does not make it a works team. It's still an engine manufacturer supplying an engine. Some data about chassis and engine dimensions will be shared, but ultimately red bull demands and renault supplies.

Mercedes and Ferrari, those are works teams. There are no confidentiality issues whatsoever internally. Every bit of sensitive data gets shared in order to find the optimal solution. There are no issues of pride and reputation between those departments hindering that process.

[noname]

There are no issues of pride and reputation between those departments hindering that process.

There are plenty of them, and the friction in the system is high.
Luckily there is one man of top who can make the call.

[zeph]

@TurboF1:

I can't help but feeling we are descending into the murkiness that is arguing over semantics. It all depends on what you consider a works team. Is McLaren-Honda a works team? Was McLaren-Mercedes a works team before Merc bought BrawnGP? Come on.

The facts are, both Horner and Abiteboul have said RBR is Renault's works team. As of 2015, RedBull is Renault's only customer. RBR actually supplies part of the ERS. They have collaborated on stuff (like EBD engine mapping) that previous Renault customers had no access to. The Infiniti sponsorship deal essentially means that RBR gets the PU's for free.

Whether or not the above is enough to call it a works team? We don't have to agree on that, but I know what I'm thinking.

edit:

On a different note, even if RedBull withdraws (which seems highly unlikely to me), the team is not going to go away. Even in the current state of F1, a top team like RBR is a terrific investment and somebody will buy. No matter in what guise, that team will be on the grid next season.

[adrianjordan]

I can't help but think that, had RBR played it's cards right this year and not criticised Renault so vocally then they could have sold a stake in the team to Renault and gotten true works status etc...

[FoxHound]

Link?

And I edited the previous post after you replied, but here is Horner himself again in 2011:

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/173061/1/r ... orner.html


Also, if that was said in September this year, it was long after all the disparaging remarks from RBR had begun to tear the relationship apart.

The link was your own:

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/renau ... orks-team/

Being the factory team was clearly what RBR wanted but Abiteboul's statements from September 2014 clearly show this wasnt actually the case.

I put it to you that this declaration in Sept 2014

"So Abiteboul declared that, now, Renault's "works team is called Red Bull"."

was an attempt at damage control.

Why is it damage control?

And why is it that quotes contextualised in the V8 era (supplying 4 teams) is relevant to when they only supplied 2 of which Red Bull are the owners of both?

Mclaren Mercedes did not need complete integration to be a "works" team. Williams BMW neither.
Why is it we cannot accept that Red Bull Renault are a works team, when Red Bull build parts that directly related to the PU?

Besides that, who else would Renault focus their efforts on? Torro Rosso? Or are they intentionally screwing themselves over so we can chew the fat on the definition? !