Shame about all the 'gaps' in torque delivery.
Thats a few seconds a lap where the car is in effect in neutral of course.
Its an absolute that comes with any 19th century lay shaft gear train.
This and all 'trick shift' systems of which I have seen dozens of variations can achieve maximum shift speed.NL_Fer wrote:Do not forget the seamless shift technology, which benefits a few ms per shift. In an f1 race this is really alot. And to be explicit, i am talking about a variation on a layshaft and dogteeth box, where a special designed dogteeth ring, reduces the time, power is interrupted.
It will result in a positive torque (in the sense that it will accelerate the vehicle forwards) applied to the wheels. As the clutch is closed the wheels and the engine try to change speed to meet each other. The engine slows down and the wheels speed up.autogyro wrote:If the gear train is reducing engine rpm at the engine by applying load against the engine during the shift, this must result in a negative torque transfer figure.
You need not to think only about the spinning of the wheels or the motor but also their relative torques. The wheels don't spin up in the sense that they are losing traction, but they slightly increase the velocity by a few percent due to the inertial torque of the engine which it is reacting which simply takes you to a higher point on the Fx vs slip graph.autogyro wrote:If the wheels speed up they are spinning in this time frame, no delivery.
If the wheels dont spin and the engine reduces its rpm there can only be zero torque transfer.
You also said when the clutch closes, so there is a neutral gap as well.
Like I said How do they measure the torque delivery.
Answer 1, not with a dyno on the car because I tried to convince the FIA to instal hub free dynos at the meetings and they moaned about cost.
The gearbox manufacturers do not test the whole package they only simulate engine and chassis and neither do the engine manufacturers.
Who has the best quess?
The heat dissipation you refer to is the product of a transfer of torque across the moving surfaces of the clutch plates. Literally the torque multiplied by the slipping velocity. If there is no torque transfer, there would be no heat.autogyro wrote:When the clutch is disengaged there is no torque from the engine.
Any inertia available from the engine as the clutch engages is dissipated as heat at the clutch pates.
Engine rpm is forced to decay by the torque delivery from the rear wheels to that required to match the new engaged ratio.
There is a balance of loads at the clutch and no transfer of torque.
A power upshift with a dog box is undertaken with the power fully applied by the engine.Tim.Wright wrote:The heat dissipation you refer to is the product of a transfer of torque across the moving surfaces of the clutch plates. Literally the torque multiplied by the slipping velocity. If there is no torque transfer, there would be no heat.autogyro wrote:When the clutch is disengaged there is no torque from the engine.
Any inertia available from the engine as the clutch engages is dissipated as heat at the clutch pates.
Engine rpm is forced to decay by the torque delivery from the rear wheels to that required to match the new engaged ratio.
There is a balance of loads at the clutch and no transfer of torque.
There is no torque transfer when the clutch is disengaged but there is absolutely a torque transfer during the engagement phase which, depending on the timing, may even give a positive acceleration of the vehicle.
If you have ever performed a flat shift on a manual gearbox you would feel this boost.
Sure and the "torque transfer from the rear wheels to slow the engine" is actually accelerating the car. It makes more sense to call this "a torque transfer from the decelerating engine releasing its "flywheel stored kinetic energy" to the rear wheels to accelerate the car" This is not a "gap" in torque delivery because energy continues to be transferred to the wheels - at a controlled rate if a slipping clutch is employed.autogyro wrote:There is a torque transfer as the clutch engages after the trick shift device has done its job on the modern boxes but it is torque transfer from the rear wheels to the engine to slow the engine, then there is a torque overlap to power on acceleration. There is little variation in the vehicle acceleration trace on the telemetry because vehicle inertia continues to drive the car forwards during the very small time frame. Like I said, it is how you measure the torque transfer.Tim.Wright wrote:The heat dissipation you refer to is the product of a transfer of torque across the moving surfaces of the clutch plates. Literally the torque multiplied by the slipping velocity. If there is no torque transfer, there would be no heat.autogyro wrote:When the clutch is disengaged there is no torque from the engine.
Any inertia available from the engine as the clutch engages is dissipated as heat at the clutch pates.
Engine rpm is forced to decay by the torque delivery from the rear wheels to that required to match the new engaged ratio.
There is a balance of loads at the clutch and no transfer of torque.
There is no torque transfer when the clutch is disengaged but there is absolutely a torque transfer during the engagement phase which, depending on the timing, may even give a positive acceleration of the vehicle.
If you have ever performed a flat shift on a manual gearbox you would feel this boost.