Horsepower of the engines.

[OO7]

Which for the record is a shame btw. There's a lot of potentional that will remain untabbed with an output of 120kw. I hope they raise the bar in the near future.

Considering the noise debate, it wouldn't surprise me if eventually a cap is placed on the amount of energy the MGU-H can harvest. Either that or a specific about of energy will have to be allocated/bypassed simply for the purpose of generating noise, if we consider that the engine regs will remain pretty much unchanged in the foreseeable future.

[turbof1]

Cold fusion

If I discharge a battery at a rate of 4Mj over 33,33 sec into a variable speed drive, driving a dc motor how much power does the vsd deliver and how much power does the motor convert (assuming 100% efficiency)?
120Kw.
Is this limit defined and measured - yes,
regulation 5,2 and appendix 3

If i now supply an additional 1Mj of energy over 33,3sec to the vsd to drive the electric motor what would the power output of the electric motor now be?
150kw
Is this additional energy source defined -no
Can it be measured if not defined-no

Chene, the output of the electric motor - the mgu-k- is measured and regulatory set at 120kw. It does not matter if I have 1, 5 or 10 undefined energy sources. Next to the fact undefined energy sources are illegal, all the electric energy sources have to pass through the mgu-k which houses the electric motor, at which point the dc will be measured. If you go beyond 120kw, you are running in an illegal mode. If you try to bypass it, your PU is illegal. Either way, there is no regulatory way to run more then 120kw (well, except within the small margin of the 95% efficiency).

For the record, you can run 2 energy sources, mgu-h and the ES, simultanously. However, the combined kw still is not allowed to exceed 120kw.

(als, what do you exactly mean with "vsd"? Hard to keep
up with acronyms!)

Vsd ( variable speed drive) aka MCU aka drive.

I understand what you say about the 120Kw regulation for the K.
What I want to know where is the 120Kw measured.
Electric motor output is dependant on supplied power input
According to the flow diagram it can only be measured as 120kw from the es, and not from any power supplied by the H as this is not defined in the regulation.
So as long as a team does not supply more than 120Kw (4Mj/33sec) from the es to K, they are within the regulation.
Any additional power from H is "free" as it is not defined by any energy flow limit.

Nope, the 120kw is definitely between the MGU-K and the red drivetrain boxes:

Definitely defined by regulation. Nothing to do with the ES (although they will measure if the output stays at 4MJ/lap for the ES).

Electric motor output is dependant on supplied power input

Below the 120KW only. if power input exceeds it, it will have either to be dumped on the ES, using the wastegate or turning off the mgu-k generator mode. Either way, you are not allowed to exceed the 120KW.

[Chene_Mostert]

Measurement between K and "drivetrain box" crank:

5.2.3
Max rpm 50000
Max torque 200N.m

Power = torque x rpm / 9,5488

that provisions 1047 kw

[ME4ME]

Measurement between K and "drivetrain box" crank:

5.2.3
Max rpm 50000
Max torque 200N.m

Power = torque x rpm / 9,5488

that provisions 1047 kw

5.2.2 Energy flows, power and ES state of charge limits are defined in the energy flow diagram
shown in Appendix 3 of these regulations.
When the car is on the track a lap will be measured on each successive crossing of the timing
line, however, when entering the pits the lap will end, and the next one will begin, at the start
of the pit lane (as defined in the F1 Sporting Regulations).
Electrical DC measurements will be used to verify that the energy and power requirements are
being respected.
A fixed efficiency correction of 0.95 will be used to monitor the maximum MGU-K power.

So yes, 120 kW is the power limit of the MGU-Freaking-K

[Chene_Mostert]

Me4me
How is the K limited to 120kw?

[ME4ME]

It is limited by the rules. Appendix 3. Check Turbo's post and focus on the blue oval he so kindly painted.

[hollus]

Chene, there are 3 limits.
1) 50000 rpm.
2) 200 N.m
3) 120 kW
All are described in the regulations and all must be obeyed at all times. The N.m limit would become relevant at low rpm.

[Chene_Mostert]

It is limited by the rules. Appendix 3. Check Turbo's post and focus on the blue oval he so kindly painted.

Ok, so as long as there is a sticker on the K that says "120Kw only" it will clear the rule

[ME4ME]

Ok, so as long as there is a sticker on the K that says "120Kw only" it will clear the rule

Bottom-left of Appendix 3:

Control of Energy Management
-One sensor is connected to measure energy into and out of the MGU-K

[Chene_Mostert]

Ok, so as long as there is a sticker on the K that says "120Kw only" it will clear the rule

Bottom-left of Appendix 3:

Control of Energy Management
-One sensor is connected to measure energy into and out of the MGU-K

Yes, but you fail to see the line from h to k that says "unlimited"
According to the diagram you can only measure 4Mj converted to 120Kw ( electric motors converts supplied electrical power to mechanical power). You can not measure and control "unlimited".

As I said before as long as the 4Mj is deployed at a rate of no more than 120kw the rules are met. Any power derived from the "unlimited" line is a bonus.

[turbof1]

Ok, so as long as there is a sticker on the K that says "120Kw only" it will clear the rule

Bottom-left of Appendix 3:

Control of Energy Management
-One sensor is connected to measure energy into and out of the MGU-K

Yes, but you fail to see the line from h to k that says "unlimited"
According to the diagram you can only measure 4Mj converted to 120Kw ( electric motors converts supplied electrical power to mechanical power). You can not measure and control "unlimited".

As I said before as long as the 4Mj is deployed at a rate of no more than 120kw the rules are met. Any power derived from the "unlimited" line is a bonus.

ME4ME does not fail anything. This is what I've been saying the whole time: you can generate as much energy as you want, you are still limited to 120KW. Mind the wording too from the rules:

Control of Energy Management
-One sensor is connected to measure energy into and out of the MGU-K

As the mgu-k is also effectively the electric motor, it means the output on the drivetrain gets measured. No matter how much energy you put into the MGU-K from whatever limited or unlimited energy source, it is never allowed to exceed 120kw in output on said drivetrain. The sensor measures this and sends the telemetry data to the FIA. Any breach on this will result in exclusion from either qualifying or race.

The 4MJ is solely about the maximum output of the battery. You can effectively disable it and perfectly, if the other systems deliver enough, get 120kw.

Chene, I emplore you to reread everything that has been said. Reread the diagram. And please, stop confusing input with output. You are stuck on the idea that the excess energy has no other way then to be translated into power above 120kw. In reality, the car will run the wastegate if too much energy is being generated, which will keep the mgu-h from generating said excess energy. This is necessary to comply with the 120kw limit.

I have tried to make the same point at least twice
in principle it is surely possible for MU-K activity from GU-H activity without there being a point at which there is DC power

the rules do not look credible (as preventing any MU-K action exceeding the nominal 120 kW)

and what about qually ?

there may be some doubt regarding the benefit (of the cost in crankshaft power from such high exhaust recovery power)

That makes atleast a bit more sense. Your standpoint is "aside what is allowed and not allowed, how do you actually prevent the mgu-k from exceeding the 120KW". 3 possibilities:
-You dump it on the battery (ES): only up to 4MJ a lap though.
-You run the wastegate of the turbo, cutting mgu-h energy generation.
-You cut off mgu-k brake energy generation (this will put more stress on the brakes though).

[Chene_Mostert]

Turbo

Sorry but I'm not confusing input with output, electric motor output = input power from drive x motor efficiency.
My question is, how is electric motor power verified at 120kw?
Secondly the rule 5,2 and supporting appendix 3 is open to interpretation.
Only energy flow from es is specified and therefore can be measured.
120kw limit on K is a function of energy and time.
And since only energy flow from es is specified, it is the only measure that can be taken to verify 120kw.
The unlimited portion from H is were the advantage is gained by some PU manufacturer's.

But yes, lets leave it at that, hopefully when PU parity is reached all the secrets will be revealed.

[bhall II]

[...]

(als, what do you exactly mean with "vsd"? Hard to keep
up with acronyms!)

Vsd ( variable speed drive) aka MCU aka drive.

[...]

Analogous to an engine's ECU, the MCU controls the ERS; it's not a motor.



With that in mind, the 120kW limit on MGU-K output should be more apparent.

[OO7]

Ok, so as long as there is a sticker on the K that says "120Kw only" it will clear the rule

Bottom-left of Appendix 3:

Control of Energy Management
-One sensor is connected to measure energy into and out of the MGU-K

Yes, but you fail to see the line from h to k that says "unlimited"
According to the diagram you can only measure 4Mj converted to 120Kw ( electric motors converts supplied electrical power to mechanical power). You can not measure and control "unlimited".

As I said before as long as the 4Mj is deployed at a rate of no more than 120kw the rules are met. Any power derived from the "unlimited" line is a bonus.

Imagine there is a rule saying that you Chene_Mostert cannot spend more than a total £120 from any single source or combination of sources per day, but you can receive a maximum of £1000 per day. Now today I decide to give you £200, ME4ME gives you £250 and turbof1 gives you £5 (because turbof1 is a bit of a cheapskate), so you have been given a total of £455. Now because of the rule stating that you can't spend more than £120 per day, if you were to 'max-out' on a shopping spree, you'll have to either put £335 in the bank (energy store), throw it away or a combination of the two.

[turbof1]

electric motor output = input power from drive x motor efficiency.

No not necessarily. You can dumb it either on the battery, or you can run the wastegate to stop the mgu-h from generating energy.

And since only energy flow from es is specified, it is the only measure that can be taken to verify 120kw.

120KW is 120,000J for each second on track. That flow is specified on the chart. You can perfectly measure that from the electric motor. You have to understand that in reality this means with these rules that the mgu-h is controlled to produce just enough energy to reach, in combination or not in combination with the other energy sources, exactly 120kw for the electric motor.

turbof1 gives you £5 (because turbof1 is a bit of a cheapskate)

I compensate that with productivity. You know: scratching my butt, yawning, hitting the delete button . Well, your analogy was actually very good! I'm finally getting from where Chene and Cookers are coming from; they are wrestling with the question "how do you prevent an excess of energy from being converted into power". As you said, either by storing it or throwing it away (running the wastegate).