MS's comments, and the F2008 design philosophy.

[Conceptual]

With MS stating that Ferrari have a long way to go to optimize the 2008 evolution of the F2007, is is conceivable that they will go back to the F2001 design, and update it with 2008 tech?

If that was the last non-TC championship car (albeit with the V-10) would it reasistically give Ferrari a good starting place to design the F2008 around?

Comments?

[antrock]

I don't think a radical change of design philosophy is needed. Just a change of weight and aero balance together with mechanical inovation somewhere in the drivetrain. Perhaps a change in wheelbase in Ferrari's case to make it a bit more stable. Going back to 2001 would have been too bigger step backwards.

Remember a quick car with TC can also be a quick car without it - it is all down to the drivers and stability of the car. and the later had to be on the cars already to make the best out of TC anyways.

[peroa]

With MS stating that Ferrari have a long way to go to optimize the 2008 evolution of the F2007, is is conceivable that they will go back to the F2001 design, and update it with 2008 tech?

If that was the last non-TC championship car (albeit with the V-10) would it reasistically give Ferrari a good starting place to design the F2008 around?

Comments?

We are talking in F1 terms here.

That would be like taking an Audi A8 from 2007 and switch it with a Ford model T from 1920.

[Tom]

Its not completely inconcievable, but the cars have advanced so much in 7 years. I think some components will be of a very similar design to the '00 car but mostly it will be a whole new machine with 2007 genes.

[Conceptual]

Its not completely inconcievable, but the cars have advanced so much in 7 years. I think some components will be of a very similar design to the '00 car but mostly it will be a whole new machine with 2007 genes.

That is exactly what I am saying. If they are going to take the F2007 car, and evolve it into a non-TC car, you would think that you may do better going back to the branch of the last non-TC car evolution, and apply everythng that you have learned from there.

I would rather evolve a 7 year old philosophy into a new one, especially with the new electronics, than try to redesign around last years car that competed under entirely different regulations.

To me that would make more sense, but alas, I am not a team Engineer.

[modbaraban]

...car that competed under entirely different regulations.

That's exactly the point!

The aero regs. were different in 2001, the tyres. too, and the engines too! The overall level of technology is very different, and then... why are you so sure F2001 had no TC (or similar system)? Remember why TC was unbanned?

PS: Also don't forget this experience of 'upgrading' a 4 y.o. (not 7) car.

[megz]

"entirely different regulations" ... Just no TC pretty much. Schumi managed to post faster laps than anyone else in the no TC F2007 so why change a good thing?

Going back to 2001 you had a lower front wing, multiplane rear wings probably different difusers etc. Adaption of 2008 to the 2001 car would be rediculously tricky and probably not benificial.

[Conceptual]

...car that competed under entirely different regulations.

That's exactly the point!

The aero regs. were different in 2001, the tyres. too, and the engines too! The overall level of technology is very different, and then... why are you so sure F2001 had no TC (or similar system)? Remember why TC was unbanned?

PS: Also don't forget this experience of 'upgrading' a 4 y.o. (not 7) car.

I'm not trying to "upgrade" anything. I am talking about the philosophy of design, not using the same parts.

What I am suggesting is going back over the drawings to see where they where developing their mechanical grip, and what they used to get the most out of a "supposedly" non TC design. By no means am i saying to take apart a F2001, and bolt on F2007 aero and put it on the track. Just see what numbers in what places worked then, and try to aim for the same numbers, or improved numbers in the same areas while designing the F2008.

Chris

[modbaraban]

Well, I'm quite sure that the engineers will use all the available data and their knowledge/experience while designing the F2008. But I think that'll be more of general knowledge rather than the data of a specific car b'cos even the preferences for weight distribution are very different now.

I'm not trying to "upgrade" anything.

I never said that you were trying to upgrade a championship winning Ferrari F1 car

[Conceptual]

Well, I'm quite sure that the engineers will use all the available data and their knowledge/experience while designing the F2008. But I think that'll be more of general knowledge rather than the data of a specific car b'cos even the preferences for weight distribution are very different now.

I'm not trying to "upgrade" anything.

I never said that you were trying to upgrade a championship winning Ferrari F1 car

You did imply that I was suggesting just "upgrading" the F2001 chassis with 2008 aero and parts.

If the Ferrari engineers dont go over the last few evolutions of their previous non-TC designs before staring to design the F2008, I would call them dumb. Seriously dumb.

Fortunately, I dont think that anyone at Ferrari is that stupid. The teams that have previous non-TC car designs are going to crush the teams that dont have that knowledgebase to tap.

Kinda means that RBR, STR, FI, BMW and SA may be all SOL in 2008!

Chris

[modbaraban]

Kinda means that RBR, STR, FI, BMW and SA may be all SOL in 2008!

Chris

According to Sato, Super Aguri had no TC last year.

[Conceptual]

Kinda means that RBR, STR, FI, BMW and SA may be all SOL in 2008!

Chris

According to Sato, Super Aguri had no TC last year.

AND THEY DID SO WELL!!!

[modbaraban]

But they DID... which was a bit more than most expected from them

[Jersey Tom]

It would make no sense to go back to the F2001.

Vehicle handling is vehicle handling. The F2007 will handle better and go faster than the F2001 with current regs, period.

Since it will be more 'prone' to oversteer maybe the driver preference will be to bias it a little more U/S in the static setup. Other than that its all driver.

Only chassis change I'd make is probably to make the throttle throw longer for a little more fidelity in engine modulation (so its not just an on/off switch) and maybe the linearity (or nonlinearity) of the throttle position vs pedal position to make it more controllable, especially on starts.

[dumrick]

I believe the question we are facing in this discussion is: "Is there any difference in chassis and dynamic design of a competition vehicle with TC and one without?"

I really believe there is not, as the fundamentals that give good traction to a F1 w/o TC are the same that avoid TC from having to shave too much power out of the acceleration process. So, aside from throttle mapping, I see no other issue that could induce a difference in conception in next year's cars.