An Active suspension idea..

[Conceptual]

It is not allowed, but the answer is yes. While setting up camber you have to work out a compromise between extra lateral grip vital for cornering and longitudual for braking and traction.

... with no chance of the car grounding out and losing rear wheel traction and sending the car straight into a wall...

I'm all for active camber instead of active suspension...

[img::]http://www.2020hindsight.org/manila_ima ... l17909.jpg[/img]

I'm surprised that the teams havent adopted rims like this. The design is intended to incorporate the entire suspension into the rim.

[MrT]

Active camber is actually covered by the ban on active suspension. Having said this, Renault came up with a complex geometry which changed the camber dynamically by mechanical methods depending upon loadings etc without using active electronics/hydraulics. However they have not implemented it. Must not have been an effective method or weight penalties must have been to high..... There's a technical paper on the system somewhere....

[Ciro Pabón]

Mercedes developed the F400 with active camber several years ago. The car has rims with inner diameter smaller than the outer diameter (17 inches in the inside and 19 on the outside if I remember well). Of course, it's full active hydraulic suspension, but I fail to imagine great difficulties devising a mechanical camber tilt, using for example, the antiroll bar (at least in normal cars).

It's the same principle as in racing motorcycles, with a V shaped tyre: the car develops its own superelevation by tilting the wheels toward the inside of the curve.

As for the thread question, I don't understand what means a "program" that creates downforce. I also don't get what means downforce acting on "the entire body of the car": downforce is created by the body.

[Carlos]

Those tires were called triangles in the 60's
Here's an active camber compensation & anti roll suspension system.

http://daxcars.com/
[IMG:619:879]http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/879/ccar1vf8.jpg[/img]

[Carlos]

You can see it's quite simple - just 2 crossbars - one L/R and one R/L & a link each side to the wheel upright
[IMG:237:120]http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/554/ccar0qu1.jpg[/img]

[fastback33]

I knew there was some kind of fatal flaw with my idea but i couldn't think of what it would be..... oh well.


However, with that Dax suspension, does that eliminate the need for unequal lenght wishbones then if the force applied to say the right tire act's on the opposite sides suspension? (Is my understanding of this correct?)

Does the dax suspension work in the same fashion as the koenigseggs? Just different designs?

Seen here: http://www.koenigsegg.com/thecars/engin ... ineering=4

[Carlos]

fastback33 - Here's the Koenigsegg suspension. I really admire this design, Ciro has remarked on it also, it is very similar to the Ferrari 312B rear suspension, the design moves the shock absorbers inboard in such a simple fashion, add a hoop to the top rear wishbone and mount the shock/coil unit ... very elegant. I can't quite see it but I think there is an antiswaybar on the Koenigsegg...under the gearbox?
[IMG:670:500]http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/6674/suspaarmss7.jpg[/img]

The view of the Dax suspension is a frontal view ... if there was one from above we would see that it is an independent double wishbone suspension. But not truly independent because one wheel is 'tied' to the opposite by a bar and crank linkage so that the wheel camber is actively controlled, when cornering, braking and accelerating, but controlled by a simple mechanical system, the wheels and lever action of the linkage also make an anti roll/sway bar un-necessary. Give that thumbnail with the 5 diagrams, 3 posts up ... a click

[fastback33]

About the K'EGG, yeah there is a anti-sway bar underneath the trans i think. It is a very beautiful/ clever design i thought even if i can't fully comprehend complexities of it.

@ the dax - well, would that set-up hinder the ability to adjust the anti -roll then? I think it is a cool idea, but it seems like there has to be some kind of draw back to it.

[Carlos]

Dax doesn't use an anti-sway bar as that function is part of design - replaced by the linkage/crank elements (sounds so much better than 'bits' - yes? )

One way to understand suspension systems would be to run them in simulation. I keep coming across Matlab modules, it seems to be a standard, I have also found a student version of the software for $89USD.

http://www.usc-umn.com/acb/showdetl.cfm ... 0&CATID=56

Also found several Matlab simulation software community sites
http://www.mathworks.com/matlabcentral/ ... e=file&all

http://www.brothersoft.com/downloads/matlab.html

[NickT]

Why can the spokes of the wheels not be turned into vanes, then with a bit of Imagination..ok a lot of imagination and the right ducting pointed near to the ground as the wheels turned you could create a vacuum and suck the car to the ground.

Down side is this would use up power to create the vacuum, and the brake calliper cooling may go a bit haywire.

This was tried some time ago, I think it was Gordon Murry while at Brabham when they were running Alfa Romeo engines. Basically the cars had a giant cooling fan on the back that sucked air from the underside of the car and through the radiators and also just happened to generate extra down force It was banned after one race I think but what was interesting was how critical the cooling was, one car damaged its skirt and over heated as a result. Details http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brabham_BT46

Going back to the suspension systems of Dax and Konesssssssiiiiigggg both are quite innovative, but most F1 teams achieve similar end results with sophisticated linkages to the third spring/damper assembly and its bump stops. There have been a number of forum posts on the subject over the years, but when I tried searching I got 13 pages of results and couldn't find the one I was looking for

[Ciro Pabón]

Ehem, are you sure you checked the "Search for all terms" checkbox? I found this, searching for third spring:

3rd Spring - Dec 2004

Third Spring - Jan 2007

New Ferrari rear 3rd spring/damper - Sep 2007

Wow, is this the sway bar?? - Oct 2007

[Jersey Tom]

Consider the absolute about of suspension travel an F1 car sees and how that factors in.

For example in roll.. at static position the roll camber rate is about as bad as you can get. Infinite VSAL = perfect camber control in bump, and 1 deg/deg rollcamber.

But the setup is so outrageously stiff it might not matter. If it were a minivan with the chassis flopping all over with a 5deg/g roll rate, you'd have an issue. On an F1 car.. maybe not so much.

[Ciro Pabón]

Sorry, Jersey Tom, for the interruption. I just want to give the link to some Koenigsegg suspension pictures with a brief description, on a thread by Carlos. Maybe that's what Nick_T was looking for: Six links Watts 1 suspension system

On the other hand maybe that's not what he was looking for. How could you get 13 pages looking for Koenigsegg?

Anyway, on the picture posted by Carlos, the anti roll bar is not invisible. You can barely see the black link, on top of the bolt on top of the gearbox, between the two horizontal coils. That's the central part of the bar, with the links to the A-arms removed.



Here is the complete gadget, as appeared in the previous link.

[humble sabot]

innovative, shm-inovative




1978 arrows that is!