ERS Deployment Question

[papatel]

First time posting in this forum.

I read recently that the Mercedes ERS deployment mapping is track dependent and is optimized for a given track to minimize lap time. Can't find the link!I know with these new power units the ERS (more specifically the MGU-K) is mapped to the pedal instead of a physical button (like the old KERS system). But does track dependent deployment mean the power unit communicates with the GPS, i.e. some sort of GPS location dependent pedal/engine MGU-K mapping?

ERS deployment is one aspect of these new power units that seems the biggest mystery to me!

[Juzh]

But does track dependent deployment mean the power unit communicates with the GPS, i.e. some sort of GPS location dependent pedal/engine MGU-K mapping?

In short: yes.

[Big Mangalhit]

I think I read teams are using a self learning, massively intricate, algorithm that optimises the deployment. I would imagine it to be linked to GPS data but I have no clue how it works. I also imagine it learns a lot during FP on which is optimal map and that is is dependent on the weight of the car and whether it is on quali mode or long run mode.

[papatel]

Wouldn't this mean the driver has a different pedal response or "feel" depending on where they are on the circuit? I.e. for a give pedal position MGU-K is run at 0-100% power depending also on track position.

The track positioning feeding to the PU part is throwing me off. Makes me wonder if FIA will eventually ban this ...

[Juzh]

Wouldn't this mean the driver has a different pedal response or "feel" depending on where they are on the circuit? I.e. for a give pedal position MGU-K is run at 0-100% power depending also on track position.

The track positioning feeding to the PU part is throwing me off. Makes me wonder if FIA will eventually ban this ...

K is activated only on full throttle. Probably tied to a gps, steering wheel input and a million other things. So for short full throttle straights i'd imagine ers is not deploying at all.

[papatel]

Thanks for the info. That makes sense. I was under the impression MGU-K could deploy even on partial throttle..
Do you think all the manufactures have position dependent MGU-K deployment?
Honda/Renault/Ferrari have been pretty quiet on this.

The iRacing model of the Honda PU does not account any position dependent MGU-K deployment. Either they didn't fully model the PU or Honda does not take track position into account for their deployment algorithm...

[wuzak]

Wouldn't this mean the driver has a different pedal response or "feel" depending on where they are on the circuit? I.e. for a give pedal position MGU-K is run at 0-100% power depending also on track position.

The track positioning feeding to the PU part is throwing me off. Makes me wonder if FIA will eventually ban this ...

K is activated only on full throttle. Probably tied to a gps, steering wheel input and a million other things. So for short full throttle straights i'd imagine ers is not deploying at all.

I don't believe that to be correct.

I think that the MGUK will deploy at part throttle if it is a more efficient way to get the power required at that point in time.

[wuzak]

I think I read teams are using a self learning, massively intricate, algorithm that optimises the deployment. I would imagine it to be linked to GPS data but I have no clue how it works. I also imagine it learns a lot during FP on which is optimal map and that is is dependent on the weight of the car and whether it is on quali mode or long run mode.

Not sure that it is linked to GPS.

The cars basically know where they are on the track. They get the signal from the finish line and use time, speed and acceleration data from sensors to calculate where they are.

They have been doing this for years.

[Juzh]

Wouldn't this mean the driver has a different pedal response or "feel" depending on where they are on the circuit? I.e. for a give pedal position MGU-K is run at 0-100% power depending also on track position.

The track positioning feeding to the PU part is throwing me off. Makes me wonder if FIA will eventually ban this ...

K is activated only on full throttle. Probably tied to a gps, steering wheel input and a million other things. So for short full throttle straights i'd imagine ers is not deploying at all.

I don't believe that to be correct.

I think that the MGUK will deploy at part throttle if it is a more efficient way to get the power required at that point in time.

ERS deployment graphic put on by FOM during races quite clearly shows deployment only being used on full throttle.

In what part throttle situations would you prefer ERS over ICE? Kimi didn't seem to like K deployment coming out of a hairpin in canada, did he?

[NL_Fer]

MGU-K is not deployed in part throttle, probably even working as a generator, charging ES. The more charge is available in ES, they can even skip MGU-H harvesting on part of the straight, running with opened wastegate, lowering backpressure and having more power on the crankshaft.

[Joseki]

MGU-K is not deployed in part throttle, probably even working as a generator, charging ES. The more charge is available in ES, they can even skip MGU-H harvesting on part of the straight, running with opened wastegate, lowering backpressure and having more power on the crankshaft.

IIRC the MGU-K can be used as a generator only while braking since it can't apply negative torque.

[Muulka]

Gone

[godlameroso]

The ERS deployment is done by distance; the car takes measured wheel speeds, wind speeds, etc. and works out the distance travelled. It then looks up a program which says when to do maximum deployment and when to lessen it. Nothing from GPS; it's not accurate or quick enough.

But all the teams will be optimising deployment for a great variety of situations, say qualifying, race and perhaps even race defence; if you're afraid of getting DRS passed; make sure you're damn quick down the DRS straight!

It's extremely clever and very difficult to get right. But they do it!

So you're telling me that the car knows when to harvest when to deploy and how to adjust the recovery rate as well as engine braking on the fly as well as determining when to harvest from the MGU-H, when to send to the battery, when to send directly to the K, and when the K sends power to the H? How about when to send torque to which wheel, or degree of diff locking?

[Jolle]

K is activated only on full throttle. Probably tied to a gps, steering wheel input and a million other things. So for short full throttle straights i'd imagine ers is not deploying at all.

I don't believe that to be correct.

I think that the MGUK will deploy at part throttle if it is a more efficient way to get the power required at that point in time.

ERS deployment graphic put on by FOM during races quite clearly shows deployment only being used on full throttle.

In what part throttle situations would you prefer ERS over ICE? Kimi didn't seem to like K deployment coming out of a hairpin in canada, did he?

The FOM graphics show when the K is fed from the ES, not when it's fed from the H.

When a driver asks, for instance, 80% throttle, the ICE could give 100% and the K unit -20%, in other words, harvesting energy. Even off throttle trough a corner the K could be maximising harvesting while the ICE is cancelling it out to have a zero force on the wheels.

Lots and lots to play with. The big teams have development drivers work the sim all weekend to come up with the most ideal maps with speed vs fuel save, overtaking, etc etc

[Juzh]

I don't believe that to be correct.

I think that the MGUK will deploy at part throttle if it is a more efficient way to get the power required at that point in time.

ERS deployment graphic put on by FOM during races quite clearly shows deployment only being used on full throttle.

In what part throttle situations would you prefer ERS over ICE? Kimi didn't seem to like K deployment coming out of a hairpin in canada, did he?

The FOM graphics show when the K is fed from the ES, not when it's fed from the H.

When a driver asks, for instance, 80% throttle, the ICE could give 100% and the K unit -20%, in other words, harvesting energy. Even off throttle trough a corner the K could be maximising harvesting while the ICE is cancelling it out to have a zero force on the wheels.

Lots and lots to play with. The big teams have development drivers work the sim all weekend to come up with the most ideal maps with speed vs fuel save, overtaking, etc etc

This is viable strategy in qualifying where fuel is not a problem, but during the race? I'm not so sure burning fuel to charge batteries is more efficient than just putting it all down to the crank and to the tires. There's bound to be loses somewhere during the process.

I agree FOM most likely only monitors ES discharge, and mgu-h direct transfer to K could happen during part throttle, but I still don't understand why would you want to do that.