Short gear ratio n gear elimination

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
leonhart5625
leonhart5625
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Joined: 13 Feb 2008, 07:23

Short gear ratio n gear elimination

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Hello everyone. Can anyone explain to me what short gear ratio is? And I would like to know if there is a way to eliminate the first gear in our car. Currently the gear is 1-N-2-3-4-5. So I would like to eliminate the 1st gear so that it’ll be N-1-2-3-4 @ N-2-3-4-5. We’re using Honda CBR 600 F4i.

RH1300S
RH1300S
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Joined: 06 Jun 2005, 15:29

Re: Short gear ratio n gear elimination

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Short gear is the one that carries you to the lowest speed at top revs - "1st" ;) - a short final drive if it's a motorcycle chain driven system, would be where there is a bigger difference in size between the front sprocket and the rear one (rear being bigger) - so, for every rotation of the front sprocket the driven wheel turns fewer revolutions.

I can't understand why you would want to change the shift order of the box.....neutral between 1st/2nd is not hard to find when you need it and nearly impossible to select by accident (just as long as the gearbox innards are adjusted properly).

Clicking down through the gears you reach bottom gear and there it stops - no risk of accidentally going through to neutral.

A motorcycle gearbox has a selector drum that is moved in steps by by the lever - to disable 1st gear you would probably have to modify the drum. Also, take that cog out as you don't really want it in there doing nothing (but I guess you would need to make up spacers to full the gap).

It seems like a complicated way to achieve something you maybe don't need (or am I missing your point?)

leonhart5625
leonhart5625
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Joined: 13 Feb 2008, 07:23

Re: Short gear ratio n gear elimination

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yes, i dont think that i really need to change the shift order of the box,but i've been asked to find if there is a way to do it because we need to simplify the shift order to make the clutch designing much easier. and thanks for the info about the short gear ratio. and if there is a way to change the shift of the gear, i really want to know about it.

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Short gear ratio n gear elimination

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My personal motto is "I have no mottos"... ehem, I mean, my personal motto is "There are no impossible things but unable men". So the answer is, sure you can. Here comes one of my long mileage posts. I'm sure you must be familiar with all this, but, hey, maybe not everybody is, so forgive me if the explanation is too simple.

First option: a bike gearbox is know as a sequential gearbox. It follows the same principles of the gearbox of an F1 car. Here is the pic:

Image

The gears without any marks are fixed to the axle, while the gears marked with an X are free to spin. It doesn't take too much time to figure that there are no two coupled gears that can transmit power: if one gear is fixed (I'll call it a "locker"), the one that meshes with it is free to spin (I'll call it a "spinner"). The gearbox is in neutral.

Now, the locked gears have "stumps" and the spinner gears have "holes" in them. If you moved the locked gear against its neighbour, both become interlocked, and then you have selected a gear. The "spinner" gear is locked to the axle through its "locker" neighbour.

Image

It's easy to deduce that if you cut the stumps or fill the holes (pick one), then the gear will not lock, so you will have one less gear to use. Another possibility (possibility 1A) is to elliminate (remove) the spinner gear for first gear, that is, the one marked with an X on the lower right extreme of the first picture.

There is a second option: the selector forks are what move the locked gears and cause them to interlock with the spinner gears. They are like that:

Image

It's easy to "see" that those forks, moving left or right is what cause the gears to "engage", isn't it? This is made through another device called a shift drum or ratchet drum. Here you have how it looks:

Image

The little stumps on top of the forks are what allows them to be moved by the shift drum, through the slots that are cut on it. So, if you eliminate one of them, you'll have one less shift gear. You can also modify the shift drum, but it seems a more convoluted proposition.

A third option: do you notice the plate shaped like a star on the front of the shift drum? It's the stopper plate. That's what you move with your foot. Here is the arrangement of the thing:

Image

As you can "see", the "points" of the star are the place where the "claw" engages to turn the shift drum and engage the gear, isn't it clear? Elliminate one of them and you have one less gear.

About the gear ratios, you can change the sprockets or the rear wheel size avoiding a lot of work... ;)
Ciro

leonhart5625
leonhart5625
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Joined: 13 Feb 2008, 07:23

Re: Short gear ratio n gear elimination

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Ciro Pabón, that's surely a long xplanation but very2 helpful..now i know that everything is possible..as i'm a newbie in this field, surely i'll take quite a time to digest these things..and i'm doing dis as my part time. so i'll take my time to learn what u've told me before get the things done..again, thnks very much for ur concern.. :D

Belatti
Belatti
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Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Re: Short gear ratio n gear elimination

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leonhart, first you mention a car and then you mention a Honda CBR 600 F4i.
Are you building some kind of sand/mud pilot type kart?
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

RH1300S
RH1300S
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Joined: 06 Jun 2005, 15:29

Re: Short gear ratio n gear elimination

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I'm interested about your clutch design comment.

As you obviously know - the engine & gearbox are a unit and the clutch is integral. So...I'm really intrigued to know about this clutch and what it's doing :)

Is it too obvious to state that you hardly need a clutch on a bike gearbox - up or downshifts. You can even find neutral without a clutch if the thing is rolling slowly in 1st gear (in fact it's often easier than fishing round for neutral once the vehicle has stopped ;)).

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Short gear ratio n gear elimination

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That's true, RH1300. Of course, the "claw" (I don't know the english name), that is, the mechanism that moves the end plate, can suffer a little, like this broken one:

Image

You have to have a good ear or the "stumps and holes" in the gears will wear, not to mention chain and sprockets. Besides, it's always good to be gentle with machinery (and hard with maintenance)... ;)

Who am I kidding? People that ride bikes don't get concerned too much about that, exception made of the "elegant ones", but it's a pain in the butt to be changing the chain every 5.000 miles.
Ciro

RH1300S
RH1300S
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Re: Short gear ratio n gear elimination

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I was tempted to mention - but wanted to keep my post short........;)

Personally - I tend to use the clutch on "slow" upshifts (although more of of a light brush than full disengage) - but when you are flat chat and shifting high up the rev range, it just snicks in with no stress - just the tiniest roll-off of the throttle.

You do develop a feel for the right throttle adjustment and speed of toe.

Downshifts are another matter - they can be done; but I nearly always use the clutch to save reverse loads and mechanical roughness - also it stablises the rear better if you use the clutch sensitively.

I think much depends on the gear spacing - the closer ratios snick through easier than the wider spacings (i.e. 1st - 2nd seems to like a flick of the clutch).

Belatti
Belatti
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Location: Argentina

Re: Short gear ratio n gear elimination

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Any advice you can give to a man that has never ever ride a bike and that will test his friends new CR85 in a mud track?

I made a bet I have got enough balls to jump in it in my first try... How hard can it be to make a little couple of meters jump? :roll:

Just in case, wish me luck! :D
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

nae
nae
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Joined: 29 Mar 2006, 00:56

Re: Short gear ratio n gear elimination

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easyest way to change yer gear ration is to lower the rolling diameter of the driven wheels ( or on a bike go down a tooth on the front or up 3 on the back)
..?

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Short gear ratio n gear elimination

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Belatti, I'm no expert on bikes, but this could bring on some comments:

- Ride over the jump a couple of times before you attempt to jump, visualize yourself doing it, the same way visualizing yourself doing something in football helps you to actually do it.

- When you are ready, give all the gas you can a couple of meters from the top of the jump to "precompress" the suspension a little (I've heard this is call "pinning" the bike). Grip the tank with your knees, the same way you grip a horse (if you've ever rode one), the front of your body towards the handlebars, knees bent to adsorb the landing, weight a little toward the back.

- Shift your weight forward when you're in the middle of the jump to help level the bike, but not too much: you want the rear wheel to hit the land first. If the front of the bike is too high, you can brake the rear wheel a little to level off (that's not easy to do, your feet have no weight, so you might have to pull the handlebars to put some force on your braking foot).

- Give gas right before landing to avoid being "stuck".

Not to discourage you, but the first time I tried, the front of the bike went too high, I wasn't gripping with my knees, I did not shift my weight forward, so basically I landed on my feet and the bike continued alone... ;) Jumping is easy, landing on top of the bike is hard. The worst scenario is landing hard on the front wheel, you being launched over the handlebars and then receiving the bike on your back. Anyway, it's fun in a strange, masochistic way.

You shouldn't try to be "macho": try to learn from your buddies, don't care about their jokes. I know argentinians are not famous for their humility, but... :D Sorry, sorry, I shouldn't have said that, the devil made me do it.
Ciro

RH1300S
RH1300S
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Joined: 06 Jun 2005, 15:29

Re: Short gear ratio n gear elimination

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Belatti wrote:Any advice you can give to a man that has never ever ride a bike and that will test his friends new CR85 in a mud track?

I made a bet I have got enough balls to jump in it in my first try... How hard can it be to make a little couple of meters jump? :roll:

Just in case, wish me luck! :D
Good luck! :twisted:

How to jump depends on the shape of the ramp, as a steep ramp can compress the rear and give you a kick that sends you over the bars.

STAND up on the bike

Get your weight balanced over the bike

I doubt you will need to pre-compress the springs

Power up the jump ramp - roll it back just before take-off

As you climb the ramp - let your knees relax a little to absorb the upward motion

I never have gripped the tank with my knees - I think you need to be quite relaxed and able to move your body to balance

When in the air - your body can help position the bike

Keep in mind the thought - if the nose takes a dive - OPEN the throttle to bring the back down

If the rear gets a bit high - close the throttle and if you have the co-ordination - jab the rear brake (don't try this unless you are really sure you can do it - or are crashing anyway ;))

Try and land a little bit on the back wheel and squeeze the power back on as you land - it helps you land "light"

Obviously - when landing, let your legs abosrb as much as you can to give the back a gentle touch-down.

Front wheel landings are quite hard on your upper body strength #-o

If they give you a nice smooth ramp - it's really very easy

Downhill landings are really comfortable - lots of fun

Uphill landings beat the wotsit out of you

Have fun!

Double jumps next :D

Belatti
Belatti
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Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Re: Short gear ratio n gear elimination

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Ciro Pabón wrote: You shouldn't try to be "macho": try to learn from your buddies, don't care about their jokes. I know argentinians are not famous for their humility, but... :D Sorry, sorry, I shouldn't have said that, the devil made me do it.
Ciro, my friend just bought the bike and has the same experience than me = 0 :D
He doesn´t have the courage to jump, so I told him I would do it! 8)
Thanks for your advices, I´ll watch a couple of Travis Pastrana videos before trying! :wink:

PD: Heeeey! Fangio was a humble man! Maybe he was the only one :oops:
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

Belatti
Belatti
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Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Re: Short gear ratio n gear elimination

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RH1300S:

A thousands thanks! I´ll try and then sent you some pics or video links (of me jumping... or me in hospital :lol: )
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna