2017 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, 24 - 26 March

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Chene_Mostert
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Re: 2017 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, 24 - 26 March

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:01 pm
Chene_Mostert wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:56 pm
Mercedes AMG F1 lost the race when Lewis failed to open a gap in the first 17 laps.
If you are going to try and troll, try harder you aren't very good at it.
I apologize if I come across as trolling, I was just trying to point out the obvious, something you conveniently overlook in all your "analysis"
"Science at its best is an open-minded method of inquiry, not a belief system." - Rupert Sheldrake

foxmulder_ms
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Re: 2017 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, 24 - 26 March

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I really think that Mercedes/Lewis lost the race. I think Mercedes still has the edge. It was the early pit due to too much "whining" of Hamilton that cost the race to Mercedes. Even under this circumstances if Lewis was not slowed down by Vestappen, he would be in front of Vettel. So, overall, I think Mercedes is still the favorite.

dans79
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Re: 2017 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, 24 - 26 March

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pipoloko wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:04 pm
what if DRS set is 2 or 3 sec in stead of 1?
Getting into the 1 second range, isn't really the problem, getting from 1 second to 0 is. The cars loose so much front wing down force, that they can't follow a car for long within the 0.25 to 0.5 range, if they could they would breeze by on the straits.

Even if you made the entire back wing vanish, I don't think it would help much on an average track. What they really need to do is address the down force sensitivity issue.
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zeph
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Re: 2017 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, 24 - 26 March

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Bring back fan cars. Problem solved.

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ENGINE TUNER
ENGINE TUNER
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Re: 2017 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, 24 - 26 March

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foxmulder_ms wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:09 pm
I really think that Mercedes/Lewis lost the race. I think Mercedes still has the edge. It was the early pit due to too much "whining" of Hamilton that cost the race to Mercedes. Even under this circumstances if Lewis was not slowed down by Vestappen, he would be in front of Vettel. So, overall, I think Mercedes is still the favorite.
If the "whining" of HAM was why Merc chose to pit him then they should all be fired. They alone have all the information/lap times/deltas, HAM's job is to drive the car and communicate how it is performing to them, they are completely responsible for the strategy. Regardless of HAM's tone the numbers remain the same. HAM was still ahead of VET and still lapping faster than RAI or VER. It was clear that HAM should not have been called into the pits, all that did was give VET clear air while putting him in traffic.

Stay out as long as you are ahead, pit on the next lap if VET goes into the pits, or until you are clear of both RAI & VER.

The Ferrari was clearly faster than the Merc(at Australia). HAM had a great qually lap and VET had a poor one. Come race time the Ferrari was better on the used in Q2 ultrasofts. HAM was complaining of understeer from very early on, BOT did not seem that comfortable either and he was in clear air just as HAM. Why do the Marc's continue to take so much out of their Q2 tires when they have a 1.5 second comfort gap to get in, also they might need to think about Q2 on the supersofts rather than the ultras.

These tires seem to be more sensitive to track temp than last year. The big difference in time between the practice sessions and the race may not have been properly adjusted for by Merc. Also there was a big rain storm on the horizon at the end of Qually, did it hit the track and if so how did it affect track conditions.
Last edited by ENGINE TUNER on Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:31 pm, edited 4 times in total.

ENGINE TUNER
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Re: 2017 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, 24 - 26 March

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:11 pm
pipoloko wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:04 pm
what if DRS set is 2 or 3 sec in stead of 1?
Getting into the 1 second range, isn't really the problem, getting from 1 second to 0 is. The cars loose so much front wing down force, that they can't follow a car for long within the 0.25 to 0.5 range, if they could they would breeze by on the straits.

Even if you made the entire back wing vanish, I don't think it would help much on an average track. What they really need to do is address the down force sensitivity issue.

Exactly, setting the DRS to 2 or 3 seconds, would only help the following car to catch up sooner, it would not help them to pass.

(For the short term)They need to extend the DRS zones and also disable DRS for when passing a lapped car.

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dren
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Re: 2017 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, 24 - 26 March

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Andres125sx wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:43 pm
So without team orders or damaged cars, two overtakes on the whole race

Even when Melbourne is a special track, this does not look too encouraging
It is encouraging...the cars are several seconds/lap quicker so that means the races will be shorter overall, thus we don't have to suffer through a procession quite as long.
Honda!

ENGINE TUNER
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Re: 2017 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, 24 - 26 March

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Chene_Mostert wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:56 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:58 pm
Vasconia wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:54 pm
Yeah, as I have mentioned this reminds me 2000s F1. Battles can be interesting because drivers can push but just imagine yesterday´s race without Hamilton chasing Verstappen or Vettel putting some pressure on Lewis...
That's why I firmly believe Mercedes strategy lost them the race. If they would have left Lewis out, It would have been Like Monaco last year, P2 all over P1 for most of the race, but unable to get by.
Mercedes AMG F1 lost the race when Lewis failed to open a gap in the first 17 laps.

Not true, the "undercut" is not a guarantee, and is less of a guarantee than HAM pitting to give VET free air while putting himself in traffic on new tires while he's supposed to be lapping at MAX pace.

In this new era track position is King(by way of qualifying position and the start), HAM won all three and gave up track position for no reason.

aral
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Re: 2017 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, 24 - 26 March

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ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:31 pm


If the "whining" of HAM was why Merc chose to pit him then they should all be fired.
You do realise that it was Hamilton who made the call for new tyres, and NOT Mercedes? So, by your analogy, should Hamilton be fired?

pipoloko
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Re: 2017 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, 24 - 26 March

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the attached lap times are kvyat vs sainz
same car different tyres kvyat was laping .7/.8 faster that sainz he managed to pass him
VET (chassing HAM) or VES (chassing RAI)and other cases never where in less than 1 sec region therefore they never opened the DRS during chassing
how the heck Kvyat managed to pass Sainz then?


38 1:28.314[9] 1:29.046[8] -0.732 +3.576 18
39 1:28.043[9] 1:28.936[8] -0.893 +2.683 19
40 1:27.983[9] 1:28.847[8] -0.864 +1.819 20
41 1:28.075[8] 1:31.130[9] -3.055 -1.236 21
42 1:28.149[8] 1:29.009[9] -0.860 -2.096 22

ENGINE TUNER
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Re: 2017 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, 24 - 26 March

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pipoloko wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:23 pm
the attached lap times are kvyat vs sainz
same car different tyres kvyat was laping .7/.8 faster that sainz he managed to pass him
VET (chassing HAM) or VES (chassing RAI)and other cases never where in less than 1 sec region therefore they never opened the DRS during chassing
how the heck Kvyat managed to pass Sainz then?


38 1:28.314[9] 1:29.046[8] -0.732 +3.576 18
39 1:28.043[9] 1:28.936[8] -0.893 +2.683 19
40 1:27.983[9] 1:28.847[8] -0.864 +1.819 20
41 1:28.075[8] 1:31.130[9] -3.055 -1.236 21
42 1:28.149[8] 1:29.009[9] -0.860 -2.096 22
team orders clearly, it was even mentioned by Sainz in the post race interviews

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2017 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, 24 - 26 March

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:44 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:27 pm
...Vettel would have undercut him :wink:
This part I disagree with, as Vettel's in, out and first flying laps were all slower than Hamilton's, as I showed earlier in the thread.

Hamilton
1) 1:46.345
2) 1:33.563
3) 1:27.551

Vettel
1) 1:46.995
2) 1:33.830
3) 1:27.726

1.092 total

Vettel's in lap should be a little slower as it was 6 laps later and thus had more tire wear, but inversely his out lap and first flier should have been faster because he was carrying less fuel. I'd almost assume Ferrari has a slight tire heating issue.
Hindsight is great, isn´t it?

But before the first and only pitstop biggest concern for a leading car is if the car behind is close enough for an undercut. Vettel closed the gap some laps before the pitstop, what obvioulsy litted up all alarms on Mercedes wall.

In that situation, the most common procedure is making your pitstop sooner than your rival, so you ruin their posibilities of an undercut. But they went out of pits on traffic, ruining their own race.

Probably they thought Lewis with fresh tires could have passed Max on used tires, but he couldn´t and his chances for victory were ruined

IMHO this was 50/50 Mercedes fail and Ferrari success

pipoloko
pipoloko
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Re: 2017 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, 24 - 26 March

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may be but VET and VER never where within a sec therefore we dnt know what would happened if the DRS is open
it were some overtaking during the race
on the other side
the right strategy was
US/SS (VES's) vrstappen cut 8 secs to RAI/HAM
OF course the leaders took a conservative approach and Merc took the mos one and that is why the lost
same (ferrari)that 2016 wrong decisions race lost.

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2017 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, 24 - 26 March

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pipoloko wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:23 pm
how the heck Kvyat managed to pass Sainz then?
STR drivers were on different tire strategies, and Sainz was told to let Kvyat pass

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motobaleno
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Re: 2017 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, 24 - 26 March

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in the lap when hamilton pitted his first and second stint were particularly slow: much slower than vettel and maybe (not sure) even slower than verstappen: this maybe has not been properly taken into account in this discussion.