2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
gruntguru
gruntguru
566
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:36 pm
now here's a useful reference that I've just rediscovered (originated by another poster) flame speed measurements in a Ferrari F1 V8 at 16000 rpm etc http://ltces.dem.ist.utl.pt/lxlaser/lxl ... 12.2_6.pdf
Interesting paper. One nice takeaway is that flame speed (for that engine) sits around 1.5 x mean piston speed.

Quote from http://www.egr.msu.edu/zhug/Conference% ... zation.pdf

"The distributed ignition sites have also resulted in significant reductions in spark timing for the jet ignition system when compared to the lean spark ignition operating conditions. It is noted that the jet ignition pressure rise rates can also be controlled to typical stoichiometric spark ignition levels using an ultra lean main chamber. However for equivalent stoichiometric conditions, jet ignition combustion typically has pressure rise rates which are approximately 50% higher when compared to spark ignition combustion."
je suis charlie

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

Combustion pressure rate rise speed/'late advance' of ignition is of course, a desirable feature of HCCI...
..& if/when that particular 'genie' is 'mastered', is promising, esp' being an item Honda has delved into..
..re-named - over the decades - as "Activated Radical Combustion", but its clearly still problematic, for F1..

Is the chemical/pressure/heat synergy showing incipient 'quantum' *fluctuations?

*Or are the sophistications of the the technicalities.. just saying.. 'fluc-u-asians'.. (-joke-)..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

An archived article by Kevin Cameron wherein he includes/describes certain transonic DI issues..

http://www.dynotechresearch.com/blog/ar ... nYear=2013

Is unstable HCCI/deto the root cause of the destructive 'vibes' Honda-McLaren are presently stymied by?
Or is it crankshaft architecture/crankcase harmonics/resilience complexities added to ''...Radical Combustion."?
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

User avatar
godlameroso
309
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

Intake and exhaust pressure(back pressure in exhaust case) interaction with combustion process, and resonant vibrations in the combustion chamber causing jet instability. Some of it is NVH related.
Saishū kōnā

Vortex37
Vortex37
20
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:53 pm

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula 2018 regs

Post

FIA Technical Regulations 2018 Published 30/04/17 NEW RULE.

5.6.8 Engine plenum (as defined in line 4 of Appendix 2 to these regulations) air temperature must be more than ten degrees centigrade above ambient temperature.......

For me, an interesting new regulation for 2018. I had a suspicion that one of the manufacturers was using a Ranque-H tube or similar to reduce inlet air temp. Also the possibility that they used the hot side to warm fuel temps, or you could feed back into the turbo. Remember way back in this thread, somebody posted a pic of the Ferrari pit wall data display, which showed a much higher than conventional fuel temp. It would be easy to have an engine mode that switched some of the compressor output through the tube. Personally, I would think about designing it into the compressor outlet housing. Of course you could also...... :wink:

ENGINE TUNER
ENGINE TUNER
25
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

Interesting new rule, but if they found an efficient way of cooling or keeping the intake manifold air temps down why would it need to be restricted?

I have never used or come across a fuel I wanted hotter, I have always tried to keep them cooler, why would they want to do this? They are no longer running the same "exotic" fuels they ran in the turbo '80s.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
645
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

(hotter) to combust at leaner AFRs than otherwise possible ?

hurril
hurril
54
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

What is to be gained with this limitation?

George-Jung
George-Jung
18
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:39 pm

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

Perhaps it has something to do with the fuel density and volume related to higher temperatures?

gruntguru
gruntguru
566
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

Yes, I am surprised. Low intake temps reduce the boost requirement and possibly allow higher CR but apart from the latter restraint, TE (and therefore power under this formula) is actually reduced by intercooling.
je suis charlie

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

How do they define 'ambient' temp?
Is it based on the track tower weather station data,
the air measured at engine level above the track,
or air at/in the engine ram intake?
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Vortex37
Vortex37
20
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:53 pm

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

Engine Tuner Wed May 03, 2017 8:51 pm wrote:I have never used or come across a fuel I wanted hotter, I have always tried to keep them cooler, why would they want to do this? They are no longer running the same "exotic" fuels they ran in the turbo '80s.
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 10:04 pm
(hotter) to combust at leaner AFRs than otherwise possible ?
TC, gruntguru et al discussed this back in 2014 & 2016 :o My combustion chemistry is a bit rusty, so maybe someone else could detail the advantages. I am also interested in what you would be able to use as an ignition inhibitor in the fuel.
Gruntguru Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:01 am wrote:Despite many protests around these parts, I am quite sure fuel heating is desirable in a "fuel-efficiency" formula. (Same goes for charge air temperature). It is inconceivable that ambient temperature would by some coincidence turn out to be the optimal value for efficient combustion. If you accept that premise, it is also unlikely that the optimum fuel temperature at a particular engine operating point will also be optimal for all other operating points.

The obvious consequence is that fuel temperature will need to be constantly (and rapidly) adjusted to match the continuously changing engine operating point.

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

You could look up butanol use in HCCI research..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Vortex37
Vortex37
20
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:53 pm

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

J.A.W. wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 2:20 am

How do they define 'ambient' temp?
Is it based on the track tower weather station data,
the air measured at engine level above the track,
or air at/in the engine ram intake?


5.6.8 Engine plenum (as defined in line 4 of Appendix 2 to these regulations) air temperature must be more than ten degrees centigrade above ambient temperature. When assessing compliance, the temperature of the air will be the lap average recorded, by an FIA approved and sealed sensor located in an FIA approved location situated in the engine plenum, during every lap of the race. The first lap of the race, laps carried out whilst the safety car is deployed, pit in and out laps and any laps that are obvious anomalies (as judged by the technical delegate) will not be used to assess the average temperature. The ambient temperature will be that recorded by the FIA appointed weather service provider one hour before any practice session or two hours before the race. This information will also be displayed on the timing monitors.
2018 F1 Technical Regulations 40/103 30 April 2017 © 2017 Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile

wuzak
wuzak
467
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

Vortex37 wrote:
Fri May 05, 2017 5:38 pm
J.A.W. wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 2:20 am

How do they define 'ambient' temp?
Is it based on the track tower weather station data,
the air measured at engine level above the track,
or air at/in the engine ram intake?


5.6.8 Engine plenum (as defined in line 4 of Appendix 2 to these regulations) air temperature must be more than ten degrees centigrade above ambient temperature. When assessing compliance, the temperature of the air will be the lap average recorded, by an FIA approved and sealed sensor located in an FIA approved location situated in the engine plenum, during every lap of the race. The first lap of the race, laps carried out whilst the safety car is deployed, pit in and out laps and any laps that are obvious anomalies (as judged by the technical delegate) will not be used to assess the average temperature. The ambient temperature will be that recorded by the FIA appointed weather service provider one hour before any practice session or two hours before the race. This information will also be displayed on the timing monitors.
2018 F1 Technical Regulations 40/103 30 April 2017 © 2017 Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile
That could be a problem, where 2 hours before a race may be hot but by race time a cool front has passed through and the air temperature dropped by a long way....