If Luck is such a dirty word (and I am not denying anything else you said, excellent (and daring) work is being done) then how come Sebastian Vettel himself said in his post race interview "when the SC came out I thought Oh No not again". He feared he would be unlucky again.George-Jung wrote: ↑19 Apr 2017, 07:59It is not luck being or becoming more important; hard work, excellent strategies and execution are becoming more important in order to win in such a competitive field.
Verstappen also did't have bad luck- it was just poor quality of some of the parts in his car that came to play.
I think the argument has a lot to do with perception. Who had track position? How quick are the relative cars? There is still a perception that the Mercedes is the car to beat - highlighted by the advantage in QF and the fact that it is still quick enough for race wins. Track position gives another advantage. In that sense, assuming Mercedes gets the optimum out of their race, one would assume it is the car that wins more often than not.George-Jung wrote: ↑18 Apr 2017, 20:20Than basically you say that Vettel is just lucky to have won the race- excluding all the hard work that has been done over the last couple of months by the Scuderia..
I think they are very close to each other as long Merc is not running the highest engine mode. That said: With the Q advantage due to the engine Merc can easily get 1-2 Qs if Bot can sort his pace out and everything is running normal. A normal race start and Vet will be behind the blocking car, no chance to overtake on a usual circuit and the prime car disappearing.Phil wrote: ↑19 Apr 2017, 12:29I think the argument has a lot to do with perception. Who had track position? How quick are the relative cars? There is still a perception that the Mercedes is the car to beat - highlighted by the advantage in QF and the fact that it is still quick enough for race wins. .......George-Jung wrote: ↑18 Apr 2017, 20:20Than basically you say that Vettel is just lucky to have won the race- excluding all the hard work that has been done over the last couple of months by the Scuderia..
I completely agree with your view. Also note that grid penalty is coming sooner or later for Ferrari as they have used most of the available parts as per regulation. The lead then turns into deficit automatically. Also in season development will push the Merc car further ahead and ultimately a cruise control victory for WDC and WCC.basti313 wrote: ↑19 Apr 2017, 13:04I think they are very close to each other as long Merc is not running the highest engine mode. That said: With the Q advantage due to the engine Merc can easily get 1-2 Qs if Bot can sort his pace out and everything is running normal. A normal race start and Vet will be behind the blocking car, no chance to overtake on a usual circuit and the prime car disappearing.Phil wrote: ↑19 Apr 2017, 12:29I think the argument has a lot to do with perception. Who had track position? How quick are the relative cars? There is still a perception that the Mercedes is the car to beat - highlighted by the advantage in QF and the fact that it is still quick enough for race wins. .......George-Jung wrote: ↑18 Apr 2017, 20:20Than basically you say that Vettel is just lucky to have won the race- excluding all the hard work that has been done over the last couple of months by the Scuderia..
Oz was different to normal due to Vet running in P2 after the start.
Bahrain was different to normal with Vet in P2 and the prime car even further behind.
It is pure statistics, that usually everything runs normal, so Ham has a clear advantage this season as long as Ferrari can not overcome the 0.5sec Q disadvantage (maybe 0.3 compared to Bot).
Yeah, vague rules only seem to favor Ferrari like in China when Vettel wasn't penalized for his starting off his grid box.lks wrote: ↑16 Apr 2017, 18:02The only rule i can find is :
"No car may be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed
potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person at any time whilst the safety car is
deployed. This will apply whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit entry or the
pit lane.."
Don't se how Hamilton broke that rule. I can't fint a rule regarding blocking.
FIARRARI at it again it seems.AMG.Tzan wrote: ↑16 Apr 2017, 19:46What an utter nonsense penalty to Hamilton! Not only did it destroy the Hamilton vs Vettel battle we've been waiting for, but also we've seen many times drivers slowing down the others behind when they stuck up behind their teammate in the pitlane...I remember Raikkonen at Spa in 2005 slowing down the whole field just to let Montoya do his pit stop and not stuck up behind him! Other than that the race was spectacular with great overtaking moves...specially at the end of the pit straight we saw who's got the balls to brake late!! I really think the new Tilke-droms will suit these new cars so much better...so nicely done there Formula 1...faster cars, beautiful cars, much better and braver overtaking moves!! =D>
Well said. Mercedes strategy is really poor.Moose wrote: ↑17 Apr 2017, 01:21The more Mercedes stick to their "the first placed driver gets the pick of when to stop" strategy, the more it hurts them.
It allows competing teams to be safe in the knowledge that they can get an undercut on the second placed car; and it stops them from taking more interesting strategies.
As far as I'm concerned, their optimal strategy today would have been to pit Hamilton slightly early, to force Ferrari to pit Vettel the next lap, and pit Bottas at the same time. That way they would have got a one lap undercut, and guaranteed that Ferrari couldn't execute the undercut that they did.
I don't get why they're sticking so rigorously to such a predictable play book.
Thats some pretty fuzzy math you're using there to predict this half a second that mercedes has in qualifying trim.basti313 wrote: ↑19 Apr 2017, 13:04I think they are very close to each other as long Merc is not running the highest engine mode. That said: With the Q advantage due to the engine Merc can easily get 1-2 Qs if Bot can sort his pace out and everything is running normal. A normal race start and Vet will be behind the blocking car, no chance to overtake on a usual circuit and the prime car disappearing.Phil wrote: ↑19 Apr 2017, 12:29I think the argument has a lot to do with perception. Who had track position? How quick are the relative cars? There is still a perception that the Mercedes is the car to beat - highlighted by the advantage in QF and the fact that it is still quick enough for race wins. .......George-Jung wrote: ↑18 Apr 2017, 20:20Than basically you say that Vettel is just lucky to have won the race- excluding all the hard work that has been done over the last couple of months by the Scuderia..
Oz was different to normal due to Vet running in P2 after the start.
Bahrain was different to normal with Vet in P2 and the prime car even further behind.
It is pure statistics, that usually everything runs normal, so Ham has a clear advantage this season as long as Ferrari can not overcome the 0.5sec Q disadvantage (maybe 0.3 compared to Bot).
Yes but if Bottas was anywhere near as quick as Hamilton in this race then a 5s penalty for Hamilton and the fact Bottas started on pole should have ensured that Hamilton finished behind Bottas. That fact it did not was not due to Bottas being asked to let Hamilton through when Hamilton was on a charge on newer tires but because Bottas simply did not have the pace in this raceChene_Mostert wrote: ↑17 Apr 2017, 16:54Well the penalty did not slow him down, it was a 5sec penalty, not a 5Kg penalty. The only reason he was ahead of Botass was that they ordered him twice to let Lewis pass.
Seriously, what are you talking about?
Well, pushing the outside car wide worked well for some years with Rosberg
I do not know what is vague on "No car may be driven unnecessarily slowly". Did I overlook any necessary reason to slow down for Ham?komninosm wrote: ↑19 Apr 2017, 17:12Yeah, vague rules only seem to favor Ferrari like in China when Vettel wasn't penalized for his starting off his grid box.lks wrote: ↑16 Apr 2017, 18:02The only rule i can find is :
"No car may be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed
potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person at any time whilst the safety car is
deployed. This will apply whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit entry or the
pit lane.."
Don't se how Hamilton broke that rule. I can't fint a rule regarding blocking.
FIARRARI at it again it seems.AMG.Tzan wrote: ↑16 Apr 2017, 19:46What an utter nonsense penalty to Hamilton! Not only did it destroy the Hamilton vs Vettel battle we've been waiting for, but also we've seen many times drivers slowing down the others behind when they stuck up behind their teammate in the pitlane...I remember Raikkonen at Spa in 2005 slowing down the whole field just to let Montoya do his pit stop and not stuck up behind him! Other than that the race was spectacular with great overtaking moves...specially at the end of the pit straight we saw who's got the balls to brake late!! I really think the new Tilke-droms will suit these new cars so much better...so nicely done there Formula 1...faster cars, beautiful cars, much better and braver overtaking moves!! =D>