This is an example I always use to demonstrate why the overtake itself was not the important part - it was the chase and the battle.turbof1 wrote: ↑03 May 2017, 15:16I agree, but to have a fight you need to have cars running very close to one another. Something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WufmGOnww8s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WufmGOnww8s
(Actually, these cars had bigger diffusers then they have now. However, the rear wing was also more vertically placed compared to the diffuser and we had a beam wing).
Ultimately, Ben also pointed that it's certainly not all about aerodynamics. Just looking at all fights and overtaking in history, the majority comes from a significant performance deficit between the 2 cars.
What I do understand is a fan can be modified on the go to increase/decrease rpm and consequently DF, so even if in dirty air, it is the only way I can imagine to keep more or less same DF to when in clean air, as increasing fan rpm does not change any other parameter in the car, unlike wings, flaps, diffusers, etc where the whole car is designed to work togheter and any change to compensate the DF reduction (for example an increase in wings AoA) will affect the downstream parts of the car, ergo way more difficult to make anything wich can compensate the reduction in aero.shady wrote: ↑03 May 2017, 14:13I have nothing to add, but the dissonance with your two points is hard to reconcile. Im not sure you understand a) dirty air, or b) fans.Andres125sx wrote: ↑03 May 2017, 11:34Based on what exactly?SR71 wrote: ↑03 May 2017, 07:00
Exactly, you can have high DF and good racing.
Newey knows this - so do a few other geniuses on the grid - the rest of us see aero as wing solutions only. Unfortunatlely for F1 the rule makers do as well.
Wing's = 20th century.
One thing is for sure, you CAN have high downforce AND good racing...
Cart can´t be considered a highly developed aero category, and that´s the problem Bhall II conviced me some time ago.
The aero problem comes from the aero development. That myth about ground effects comes from the ground effect era where aero was still on its infancy, but once aero was further developed, everything is studied and optimized, there´s no way to eliminate dirty air and the consequent reduction in downforce, plain and simple. When an aero element is developed to optimize its downforce, any dirty air will reduce its efficiency dramatically, and there´s no way to avoid this
IMO the only way to solve that would be with fan cars, I even opened a thread some time ago where Bhall tried to convice me about that´s not a solution either. He couldn´t tough, I still think a fan car would be the only way to enjoy high DF cars wich are easy to overtake, or at least they´re not severly more difficult to overtake that cars without aero
I find it amazing anytime I mention fan cars someone brings in this argument. Is an air mesh/filter that difficult to use? It shouldn´t, as any ICE use at least one. A fan for this could use a very big filter to avoid getting blocked quickly, but I agree much better tires could/should be used to avoid all those marbles. In Bridgestone era tracks didn´t get that dirty, and with fan cars F1 wouldn´t need any strategy differences to allow some overtakes wich are the main point for current era of weak tires wich can handle a few laps.
Who said it should be easy???CBeck113 wrote: ↑03 May 2017, 14:27But why should passing be easy? The fight makes it interesting, not the pass itself.Andres125sx wrote: ↑03 May 2017, 11:34Based on what exactly?SR71 wrote: ↑03 May 2017, 07:00
Exactly, you can have high DF and good racing.
Newey knows this - so do a few other geniuses on the grid - the rest of us see aero as wing solutions only. Unfortunatlely for F1 the rule makers do as well.
Wing's = 20th century.
One thing is for sure, you CAN have high downforce AND good racing...
Cart can´t be considered a highly developed aero category, and that´s the problem Bhall II conviced me some time ago.
The aero problem comes from the aero development. That myth about ground effects comes from the ground effect era where aero was still on its infancy, but once aero was further developed, everything is studied and optimized, there´s no way to eliminate dirty air and the consequent reduction in downforce, plain and simple. When an aero element is developed to optimize its downforce, any dirty air will reduce its efficiency dramatically, and there´s no way to avoid this
IMO the only way to solve that would be with fan cars, I even opened a thread some time ago where Bhall tried to convice me about that´s not a solution either. He couldn´t tough, I still think a fan car would be the only way to enjoy high DF cars wich are easy to overtake, or at least they´re not severly more difficult to overtake that cars without aero
... and doable. Imagine if most football matches finish with draw to 0krisfx wrote: ↑03 May 2017, 14:36An overtake should be like scoring a goal in football (I think Brundle coined that one before me) - It should be difficult and rewarding,Andres125sx wrote: ↑03 May 2017, 11:29Based on the three previous races. How many overtakes did you see between cars with similar pace this 2017 season?wesley123 wrote: ↑02 May 2017, 11:23
It's good that you use indy as an example of how it should be, considering those cars(together with all of Dallara's current open wheelers) run barn door rear wings.
There is very little evidence confirming that relying on wings for downforce hampers overtaking. Sure, you are being affected by dirty air, but so is your floor, and thus, both will most likely lose similair percentages of downforce.
Really? Based on what?
Vettel got increasingly close and due to DRS did not lose much on the straights. It would very well be plausible that Vettel would have outbraked Bottas into T2, or considering Vettels superior pace in the corners thereafter.
Drivers struggle to lap cars, so overtaking a car with a similar pace is today more difficult than ever, even when some people do prefer to assume F1 drivers complain without reason , facts and statements from the principal actors show this season overtaking is more difficult than ever before
Ok if you say it sould be 9 then it should be 9 because.... why exactly? Are you the spokesperson of the whole F1 comunity?
Before stating that you should first notice I was talking about 2017, as this thread is about 2017 aero rules, wich are exactly what I was talking aboutshady wrote: ↑03 May 2017, 18:12Additionally, your analysis of where we are on that scale is some distance from reality: http://cliptheapex.com/overtaking/ I posted this earlier.
Any reason that air coming from the fan can´t be canalized to put the fan exhaust for example at the anti-roll hoop facing upwards so it does not affect the car behind directly?
What is far from a problem as a fan can create DF at will, so a reduced efficiency would be easily compensated with an increase in rpm
I really don't care how much forced overtaking there is or isn't, if you want to see overtaking go to your local highway. I want to see racing, not some event where drivers are forced to overtake each other, acting like that is the sole thing that has ever counted when racing.Andres125sx wrote: ↑03 May 2017, 11:29Based on the three previous races. How many overtakes did you see between cars with similar pace this 2017 season?wesley123 wrote: ↑02 May 2017, 11:23It's good that you use indy as an example of how it should be, considering those cars(together with all of Dallara's current open wheelers) run barn door rear wings.cplchanb wrote: ↑01 May 2017, 17:24not quite true. The biggest reason for the inability to keep up close is the because of the reliance on the wings for downforce. Indy next year will have new cars that rely more on the floor for grip. If F1 relies more on the floor and mech grip they can have both
There is very little evidence confirming that relying on wings for downforce hampers overtaking. Sure, you are being affected by dirty air, but so is your floor, and thus, both will most likely lose similair percentages of downforce.
Really? Based on what?
Vettel got increasingly close and due to DRS did not lose much on the straights. It would very well be plausible that Vettel would have outbraked Bottas into T2, or considering Vettels superior pace in the corners thereafter.
Drivers struggle to lap cars, so overtaking a car with a similar pace is today more difficult than ever, even when some people do prefer to assume F1 drivers complain without reason , facts and statements from the principal actors show this season overtaking is more difficult than ever before
Ummm...you?Andres125sx wrote: ↑03 May 2017, 18:12Who said it should be easy???CBeck113 wrote: ↑03 May 2017, 14:27But why should passing be easy? The fight makes it interesting, not the pass itself.Andres125sx wrote: ↑03 May 2017, 11:34
I still think a fan car would be the only way to enjoy high DF cars wich are easy to overtake, or at least they´re not severly more difficult to overtake that cars without aero
Valtteri got lucky with the traffic, Vettel lost just enough time to make it another lap.SR71 wrote: ↑04 May 2017, 00:01Does everyone really believe that had Sochi been another 5 laps Vettel wouldn't have made an overpass attempt or 2 because the air was too dirty?
Would he have made the pass work? Who knows, but FOR SURE he would have made an attempt once he and Valteri cleared traffic.
The champ car floors were advanced, yes. But certainly not more advanced than F1 floors.djos wrote: ↑04 May 2017, 00:39Andreas, you accuse the champ cars of being simple in aero, outwardly that is true however you ignored the picture I posted of the 2000 era Lola under-wing, they are anything but simple and are orders of magnitude more advanced than anything ever seen in F1 or even allowed in Le mans prototypes.
So did F1, except those rules had to be changed because there wasn't enough overtaking. But Champ cars too required big wings.They didn't need much in the way of external wings as they relied on the bulk of their down force being generated by the underwing, even more so when they ran on ovals where the external wings became trim devices only.
I believe it was Monaco 2011 where the first three were very close to each other near the end of the race.Here is a great 3 way battle from 1998 at longbeach, it was epic and we never see front row F1 cars able to race this close and hard because they are too reliant on external wings. These sort of close ChampCar battles were not uncommon in the 90's and very early 2000's.