Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[toraabe]

I was looking at the MCL32 from onboard camera. In canada the engine was stopping at 10500 in 8th gear. Could also depend om mapping and so on. I suggest they are 130-150 hp down on mercedes in race trim. I assume the MCL32B will appear after summer..... Mc laren just cannot let this continue...

Renault is more or less on pair with Ferrari / Merc in race trim. No doubt it is only the qualifying mode that is lacking... Honda. I still assume that they have got their gear ratio wrong ( too short )

by reading your comment I remembered 2004 Renault R24 car. You know it was very very fast at start and all acceleration points but not soo good at max speed. Maybe not that bad this Honda. I don't know but if Mclaren has approach like that they could be a bit better.

[flexcon]

I was looking at the MCL32 from onboard camera. In canada the engine was stopping at 10500 in 8th gear. Could also depend om mapping and so on. I suggest they are 130-150 hp down on mercedes in race trim. I assume the MCL32B will appear after summer..... Mc laren just cannot let this continue...

Renault is more or less on pair with Ferrari / Merc in race trim. No doubt it is only the qualifying mode that is lacking... Honda. I still assume that they have got their gear ratio wrong ( too short )

by reading your comment I remembered 2004 Renault R24 car. You know it was very very fast at start and all acceleration points but not soo good at max speed. Maybe not that bad this Honda. I don't know but if Mclaren has approach like that they could be a bit better.

Well if that were true, it means that this years Honda engine in its current state, is less powerful than last year no? I thought the consensus were mcLaren were 80HP off Mercedes end of last year? How much has Mercedes gained over winter? 30HP?

[GoranF1]

According to BBC, Honda is aroun 90hp down in q2 and Mercedes Q mode in q3 gives them extra 12hp.....so Honda is 90-100 hp down.

[flexcon]

According to BBC, Honda is aroun 90hp down in q2 and Mercedes Q mode in q3 gives them extra 12hp.....so Honda is 90-100 hp down.

So with that in mind, are we really talking about Honday putting out 870HP or so? Wouldn't that be less than last year?

I know figures are all theory here, but the gap seems to have doubled from last year, and no way did Mercedes find +50HP from last year.

[GoranF1]

If those numbers are true....lap times are great.

[etusch]

Bonus question, has any engine manufacturer ever brought an upgrade of this magnitude mid-season (let alone in the current PU era) ?

No engine manufacturer ever needed such a big update to fix such a total disaster, that's why there has never been such a big update before.

Obviously IF the engine update ever gets on track and IF it gives them the result they expect.



And the Honda engine is miles behind the Renault engine, they are nowhere near in terms of power. Hulkenberg passed Alonso mid straight yesterday and pulled 40 meters in front at the end of the straight.

It is not case of not being bad as much as Honda, Renault also has reliability issues and promises they gave costumers and they also can't bring. Thats it.

[UlleGulle]

Perhaps off topic, but wouldn't it be a great idea if the two teams with strained relationships with their engine suppliers, McLaren and Red Bull, got together and bought Honda's motor operation for the usual £1?

Overpriced of course, but still, a reasonable deal. You could sweeten it with an agreement that all customer-power units would be called Honda for the coming 5 years. The two teams could then bring in someone like Ilmor or Cosworth to fix it, in cooperation with the teams.

I think everyone wins. Redbull would regain the possibility to have their fate in their own hands, McLaren would actually have a power unit, and Honda would be saved further costs and embarresment. I have a hard time thinking that the pooled resources of McLaren, Redbull and a respected engine manufacturer wouldn't succeed in making giving the Honda Unit some power and reliability. With a promise to supply everyone who wants them perhaps Liberty Media could get on board with some funding.

[Andres125sx]

I sincerely think we should stop talking about Renault PU as if it was in a similar situation to Honda. Yesterday, on a power track like Canada, Bottas never managed to pass Verstappen at the straight, despite his full house Mercedes PU + DRS, as well as Perez never managed to pass Ricciardo despite his Mercedes PU + DRS.

OTOH Alonso never had a real chance to defend his position at the straight, no matter what PU was using the other car. To me it´s not Mercedes and Ferrari on a different league, then Renault on a differnt one, and then Honda on its own. To me it´s Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault on a different league, then Honda in between F1 and GP2 engines

To me Renault maybe is not on par with Mercedes and Ferrari, but they´re close enough to be considered a competitive PU. If we could say the same about Honda I´m sure Alonso would make some podium in the season on some other crazy race like this

[SameSame]

During the race Alonso was told not to short shift from third to fourth gear. Any reason why this would be? I can't imagine it's a torque issue with the flat torque curves these PUs have? Vibration perhaps?

[DarkAlman]

It's hard to give a raw HP deficit number on these power units because there are so many factors. We aren't just dealing with an internal combustion engine anymore.

For instance the MGU-K provides X amount of HP when running but if there is a deployment problem then the Honda engine will only be able to deliver that HP for Y sec per lap when a Mercedes engine can deliver for Y+10 sec.

The MGU-H on the Honda engine doesn't seem to be able to harvest enough energy on the straights, probably because it is being deliberately under rated to prevent vibration related bearing failures on the MGU-H drive shaft. I'm starting to wonder if they've been forced to put a low rated blow out valve on the Turbine to limit the boost pressure due to all the issues with the MGU-H. That would have a knock on effect to the whole engine.

Less overall power and poor energy recovery means less top speed, which means more time spent at full power on the ICE, which translates to more fuel consumption. A thirsty engine means more weight in the fuel tank and more time spent in fuel saving mode.

But it doesn't sound like the Honda engine has only one problem... it's probably several issues that are all compounding one another to cause other issues.

[etusch]

Perhaps off topic, but wouldn't it be a great idea if the two teams with strained relationships with their engine suppliers, McLaren and Red Bull, got together and bought Honda's motor operation for the usual £1?

Overpriced of course, but still, a reasonable deal. You could sweeten it with an agreement that all customer-power units would be called Honda for the coming 5 years. The two teams could then bring in someone like Ilmor or Cosworth to fix it, in cooperation with the teams.

I think everyone wins. Redbull would regain the possibility to have their fate in their own hands, McLaren would actually have a power unit, and Honda would be saved further costs and embarresment. I have a hard time thinking that the pooled resources of McLaren, Redbull and a respected engine manufacturer wouldn't succeed in making giving the Honda Unit some power and reliability. With a promise to supply everyone who wants them perhaps Liberty Media could get on board with some funding.

So why they don't buy directly Cosworth. Why do you think Cosworth or orther anyone except Honda can achieve this? I dont say others can not achieve to built a good or even better PU than merc. But this is just possibility. İt could be enother failed organization

[McL-H]

And the Honda engine is miles behind the Renault engine, they are nowhere near in terms of power. Hulkenberg passed Alonso mid straight yesterday and pulled 40 meters in front at the end of the straight.

Right.

Alonso running around on 40 lap old tyres clearly had nothing to do with either traction off of the hairpin or the braking distance for the chicane.

Where did I mention traction and braking? I just stated a true fact: from mid straight the Honda PU is like a parachute behind the car.

It was clear when Stroll came out of the hairpin 30-40 meters behind and was in front of Alonso mid straight. And Stroll had used tyres against Fernando's fresh SS.

I'd like to add to that, that Stroll couldn't manage to drive away from Alonso in anyway after using DRS to pass him. Alonso stayed within one second of Stroll for many laps. He could use DRS to keep up on the straights, but was in no way able to pass the Williams, while clearly being much faster in the corners.

[GoranF1]

Right.

Alonso running around on 40 lap old tyres clearly had nothing to do with either traction off of the hairpin or the braking distance for the chicane.

Where did I mention traction and braking? I just stated a true fact: from mid straight the Honda PU is like a parachute behind the car.

It was clear when Stroll came out of the hairpin 30-40 meters behind and was in front of Alonso mid straight. And Stroll had used tyres against Fernando's fresh SS.

I'd like to add to that, that Stroll couldn't manage to drive away from Alonso in anyway after using DRS to pass him. Alonso stayed within one second of Stroll for many laps. He could use DRS to keep up on the straights, but was in no way able to pass the Williams, while clearly being much faster in the corners.

I remeber looking at the time screen...Alonso was playing whit Stroll...he was 3 sec behind then in less than a lap the gap was 0.7....but he couldnt pass.

[j.yank]

I tried to figure out where the supposed 80-100 hp deficit of Maclaren-Honda to Mercedes is coming from. It seems that this is based on standard ET 1/4 mile Horse Power calculators that you can find on internet. You can get the speed and time for passing 1/4 mile from the onboard qualification laps of Alonso and Hamilton from here https://youtu.be/uCP79ZKMMdI and here https://youtu.be/yx6BbFTNyy0 . Look at the timing from the start of the final straight to the red lights on left that are slightly before the middle of the straight (if you look on Google Earth this is roughly 1/4 mile). However, you need a chronometer to get more precise timing. In this way, you see some very strange results. The Alonso time deficit is about 0.3 sec but surprisingly he is faster with about 10 km/h (note that this is 1/4 mile, not the full length of the straight). In this case, the only way the calculator could give 80-100 hp deficit is Maclaren-Honda to be about 10 kg lighter than Mercedes. This is very interesting. This means that Maclaren-Honda have better initial speed on the straights but don't have enough power to maintain this speed to the end or even to middle of the straight. Also, this means that Maclaren-Honda have very, very light car comparing to other cars, and Hasegava comments on this are in fact true (probably this also explains why they are so good in the corners). IMO if they successfully resolve the combustion and vibration problems in order to maintain this speed and keep the same weight of the car, with the upcoming update they suddenly could be ahead of the rest. I don't think that this is impossible.

[godlameroso]

Reminds me of chasing that F355 around Road Atlanta, I'd ride his bumper coming off the right hander going onto the back straight, and then he'd pull away, then I'd catch him again at the same place, and he'd pull away. I couldn't pass but I was faster overall, very annoying.