HALO Approved for 2018

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Manoah2u
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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jjn9128 wrote:
Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:33 pm
The halo regs have not been published (at least I can't find them) but all the teams when they trialled the device had the same dimensions so there must be a template out there.

None of those renders make the halo look any better, as well as making it downright dangerous, this goes for other renders I've seen of canopies and screens. What the halo needs is free air space around the drivers head, i.e. in the event of a deceleration the driver's head doesn't hit the safety device, it would be kinda self defeating otherwise. Interestingly this is what the FIA highlighted as the main issue with Red Bull's aeroscreen, so I'm not sure why they didn't just move the reinforcing bar out to the halo dimensions - or why Red Bull didn't use the halo dimensions when designing the aeroscreen. Perhaps to wrap the screen around required a tighter curvature than the halo, or the halo is actually wider than the cockpit?

It only needs to save one life to be worthwhile, the cockpit side protection was despised (esp. Ferrari in '96) but has saved numerous drivers (Perez at Monaco immediately springs to mind) so to the HANS device. I think after a while we'll stop noticing it or at least move on the next outrage.
The headrest side protection was immediately a success in 1996, just remember Max'dad, Jos Verstappen, his crash at Spa-Francorchamps. There are little images of it, but he had such a violent accident that had the headrest not existed, his neck would have snapped under the force, killing him on the spot. i remember that incident just as vividly as Senna's accident, i was tense all the while untill seeing him walk away - then seeing him crumble down and more or less faint just a few steps after leaving the accident scene. again, tense af. he lived to tell thanks to the headrests. but the headrest imho never was really an issue. it changed how the cars looked but really, it didnt change the overall concept.

the halo/shield does, and the issue is, people -including me- aren't neccesarily against the halo or such, but are against the hastiness on which its now being forced in, it is far from ready, it is far from an acceptable solution, it brings a load of new dangers and concerns, and it supposedly means to solve or prevent (fatal) accidents as mentioned above, whilst exactly those accidents would had zero difference with the halo or shield.

let's take billy monger's accident for example. the plain example of a freak accident. nothing can prevent such a thing from happening. its one of those dangers - i do believe f1 is safer because of the car construction and the experience of the drivers, but its just one example that shows you can't live in a bubble. the wheel hitting the driver straight on the helmet was another freak accident where one might wonder whether the halo had much of a difference too, the top of the helmet is still exposed, and the halo opening still will make it possible for a wheel to hit a driver from the top down. the shape of a wheel [round, not square] simply makes this possible unless it is a closed lid.
bianchi doesnt need mentioning, for reals.

so at the best, its able to deflect a wheel or tire that comes straight at the head somehow. still, the chanches this can happen are almost impossible, and then, we forget 1 important aspect; drivers can STEER. it's not like they are on scalectrix tracks, or simply inside rollercoaster carts. they can steer away from danger.

as for the other reason for this to be concidered, schumacher almost getting hit by a car in his face when facing the wrong direction after contact - i'm 100% sure the device will not hold the weight and exponential energy force that a formula 1 car carries. even worse - i think there's a chance this device instead when hit might actually crush a drivers head instead. again, so many things to work out before implementing it.

thats why i still grasp to understand how on earth this suddenly becomes mandated.
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jjn9128
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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Manoah2u wrote:
Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:58 pm
jjn9128 wrote:
Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:33 pm
The halo regs have not been published (at least I can't find them) but all the teams when they trialled the device had the same dimensions so there must be a template out there.

None of those renders make the halo look any better, as well as making it downright dangerous, this goes for other renders I've seen of canopies and screens. What the halo needs is free air space around the drivers head, i.e. in the event of a deceleration the driver's head doesn't hit the safety device, it would be kinda self defeating otherwise. Interestingly this is what the FIA highlighted as the main issue with Red Bull's aeroscreen, so I'm not sure why they didn't just move the reinforcing bar out to the halo dimensions - or why Red Bull didn't use the halo dimensions when designing the aeroscreen. Perhaps to wrap the screen around required a tighter curvature than the halo, or the halo is actually wider than the cockpit?

It only needs to save one life to be worthwhile, the cockpit side protection was despised (esp. Ferrari in '96) but has saved numerous drivers (Perez at Monaco immediately springs to mind) so to the HANS device. I think after a while we'll stop noticing it or at least move on the next outrage.
The headrest side protection was immediately a success in 1996, just remember Max'dad, Jos Verstappen, his crash at Spa-Francorchamps. There are little images of it, but he had such a violent accident that had the headrest not existed, his neck would have snapped under the force, killing him on the spot. i remember that incident just as vividly as Senna's accident, i was tense all the while untill seeing him walk away - then seeing him crumble down and more or less faint just a few steps after leaving the accident scene. again, tense af. he lived to tell thanks to the headrests. but the headrest imho never was really an issue. it changed how the cars looked but really, it didnt change the overall concept.

the halo/shield does, and the issue is, people -including me- aren't neccesarily against the halo or such, but are against the hastiness on which its now being forced in, it is far from ready, it is far from an acceptable solution, it brings a load of new dangers and concerns, and it supposedly means to solve or prevent (fatal) accidents as mentioned above, whilst exactly those accidents would had zero difference with the halo or shield.

let's take billy monger's accident for example. the plain example of a freak accident. nothing can prevent such a thing from happening. its one of those dangers - i do believe f1 is safer because of the car construction and the experience of the drivers, but its just one example that shows you can't live in a bubble. the wheel hitting the driver straight on the helmet was another freak accident where one might wonder whether the halo had much of a difference too, the top of the helmet is still exposed, and the halo opening still will make it possible for a wheel to hit a driver from the top down. the shape of a wheel [round, not square] simply makes this possible unless it is a closed lid.
bianchi doesnt need mentioning, for reals.

so at the best, its able to deflect a wheel or tire that comes straight at the head somehow. still, the chanches this can happen are almost impossible, and then, we forget 1 important aspect; drivers can STEER. it's not like they are on scalectrix tracks, or simply inside rollercoaster carts. they can steer away from danger.

as for the other reason for this to be concidered, schumacher almost getting hit by a car in his face when facing the wrong direction after contact - i'm 100% sure the device will not hold the weight and exponential energy force that a formula 1 car carries. even worse - i think there's a chance this device instead when hit might actually crush a drivers head instead. again, so many things to work out before implementing it.

thats why i still grasp to understand how on earth this suddenly becomes mandated.
In my opinion we've been very lucky that no driver has been decapitated in F1 in the recent past, cars going over the tops of chassis' is always scary, Coulthard on Wurz in Aus or Grosjean on Alonso at Spa (again there have been other examples Alesi and Irvine in Austria?...etc), or cars rolling over walls or barrier - there was a case in GP2 at Magny Cours where the driver was lucky to walk away. I think the halo will also help prevent serious injury in these cases. I think you underestimate the strength and capability to spread load on a modern race car survival cell.

Billy Mongers crash immediately brought a change in the material and design that teams were allowed to use for their rear jack points. Where I do worry about any canopy or roll hoop is in driver extraction. I flicked into the BTCC on the weekend Billy Monger had his accident at it took a long time for the safety crews to extract him - without any cockpit device - same in the Indy 500 2(?) years ago when Hinchcliff crashed and the front suspension pierced the safety cell. The tests the FIA did at the track with a halo I think significantly increased the extraction time and if a driver were bleeding in the cockpit this could be bad, but cockpit intrusion is less common that loose wheels especially with the reinforcement they've added around the driver's legs. Think back to Perez at Azerbaijan, wheel tethers only work when the suspension remains attached to the car, if the next car was 2 seconds further up the road that would have had a very different outcome - there was nowhere for the next car to steer out of that.

I also think you underestimate the length of time the FIA have been doing research into this. It's not a sudden implementation - teams have been dragging their heels and the FIA have said enough is enough and imposed the most advanced concept. It's not perfect but 'we' want open cockpits and the teams need to finalize their chassis designs for manufacture (it's about 4 months from sign off to a finished tub).
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NathanOlder
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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Jolle wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:17 pm
I would like to see Pascal Wehrlein’s cam to see how close he was being in a wheelchair the rest of his life at that Monaco crash.
Surely if the barrier was flat, it would ve impossible for his head to touch anything. Like the car being upside down ?
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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Jolle wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:17 pm
I would like to see Pascal Wehrlein’s cam to see how close he was being in a wheelchair the rest of his life at that Monaco crash.
yet nothing happened. But he enters race of champions and breaks neck vertibraes. that should tell you something.
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"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
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NathanOlder
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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I just want to see some testing on one of these devices on a car upside down in a gravel trap. Just to see how different it makes it when getting out of the car.

Also a driver getting out fast and under the required time when the car is upright
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Scorpaguy
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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...as an opponent of aero and all the silly wings it brings, I have oft said that F1 cars cannot become more aesthetically unappealing. This HALO abortion has proven me wrong.

I understand the need, but it is butt ugly. FIA and its quest for abject safety has done some damage IMHO. Canning fueling has taken a major element out of the sport...now this. Hopefully it will evolve. I prefer the direction FE is contemplating as far as cockpit protection:

http://cdn.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploa ... 50x500.jpg

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FrukostScones
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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Scorpaguy wrote:
Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:47 pm
...as an opponent of aero and all the silly wings it brings, I have oft said that F1 cars cannot become more aesthetically unappealing. This HALO abortion has proven me wrong.

I understand the need, but it is butt ugly. FIA and its quest for abject safety has done some damage IMHO. Canning fueling has taken a major element out of the sport...now this. Hopefully it will evolve. I prefer the direction FE is contemplating as far as cockpit protection:

http://cdn.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploa ... 50x500.jpg
what about a Halo with wings? ^^
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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NathanOlder
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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So in the past, 5 seconds maximum is the time for a driver to get out. Lets make things safer and make it double the time to get out.

Morons, f$@king morons

I really want to know about an upside down Halo car. Cant see how you can get out.
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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so that's double in time than before. which was unacceptable first, due to the risk of on-track collision whilst escaping and fire hazards. that means either the standard of before was exegerated in the neccesity to escape a [fire] hazard,or because of the halo they'll now get burnt to a crisp or get tossed through the air when another car hits the car they're escaping.in other words, they're making it a deathtrap.

pretty harsh and negative way to look at it i know but isn't that actually the truth?

also, how are they going to escape when upside down? for example, Alonso's accident?

the biggest questions for me still is completely unanswered and fully ignored by the FIA [who are responsible for safety!];
1) driver extraction in an upside-down position with spine/neck injury.. are they going to flip the car back in position? despite spine/neck damage? how about when accompanied by fire?
2) driver escaping the vehicle in an upside-down position. will it even be physically possible to escape the car through that tiny opening upside down? if not, then HOW ON EARTH are they going to escape? again, marshalls flipping a car that now weighs 733+ KGS +driver = about 800 KGS! [how many do they need?] ? and mind you HYBRID cars, with electric shock danger? what if the light is red on the T-cam? we're going to see marshalls need to get executed/electrocuted live on TV because of some hasty implemented lunatic device?
or with a crane? how fast is that crane going to get there? how will it flip the car without it being able to connect to the rollhoop? how much time will that cost, how politely will that go?
and above all, wouldn't that bring [exactly the danger] on track that was responsible for bianchi's death? a heavy front loader recovery truck? causing all sorts of potential deaths along the way?
will we then see when a car is upside down or with the driver not able to leave like they could up untill now get a RED FLAG? so we have a clear track? i mean, if the car's upside down on the track [monaco, singapore, but any for that matter] then surely we're not going to have a VSC or a SC whilst a [deadly, heavy, helmetcrushing, murdering] caterpillar power loader truck is on track, right?
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

cplchanb
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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nice....so now they are rewriting the safety rules to cater to their pet project....

Manoah2u
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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Image

this was buttugly in the day. it got banned for it. now we have a halo device to which the above photo looks heaven compared. my god and people ask what's wrong with F1 today. the FIA, that's whats wrong.

also, i wonder if Ecclestone would have managed to block this had he still been in play?

what's next, complete closed bodies?

Image

photo is a funny meme, but in all honesty, it was NOT funny at all that there was a JEEP on track there back then. Reminding Bianchi.

WHEN WILL CHARLIE WHITING STEP DOWN AND RESIGN ??? can't we just surround him and todt with pitchforks and torches?

why can't we have something like this instead of that stupid halo?

Image
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

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adrianjordan
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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I am applying to work on the medical teams at Silverstone, if I'm successful then it will be very interesting to see how we would extracate an unconscious driver following an accident where we had to assume head/spinal injuries...
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Manoah2u
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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Image

if it were up to todt.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

marmer
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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Manoah2u wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:57 pm
so that's double in time than before. which was unacceptable first, due to the risk of on-track collision whilst escaping and fire hazards. that means either the standard of before was exegerated in the neccesity to escape a [fire] hazard,or because of the halo they'll now get burnt to a crisp or get tossed through the air when another car hits the car they're escaping.in other words, they're making it a deathtrap.

pretty harsh and negative way to look at it i know but isn't that actually the truth?

also, how are they going to escape when upside down? for example, Alonso's accident?

the biggest questions for me still is completely unanswered and fully ignored by the FIA [who are responsible for safety!];
1) driver extraction in an upside-down position with spine/neck injury.. are they going to flip the car back in position? despite spine/neck damage? how about when accompanied by fire?
2) driver escaping the vehicle in an upside-down position. will it even be physically possible to escape the car through that tiny opening upside down? if not, then HOW ON EARTH are they going to escape? again, marshalls flipping a car that now weighs 733+ KGS +driver = about 800 KGS! [how many do they need?] ? and mind you HYBRID cars, with electric shock danger? what if the light is red on the T-cam? we're going to see marshalls need to get executed/electrocuted live on TV because of some hasty implemented lunatic device?
or with a crane? how fast is that crane going to get there? how will it flip the car without it being able to connect to the rollhoop? how much time will that cost, how politely will that go?
and above all, wouldn't that bring [exactly the danger] on track that was responsible for bianchi's death? a heavy front loader recovery truck? causing all sorts of potential deaths along the way?
will we then see when a car is upside down or with the driver not able to leave like they could up untill now get a RED FLAG? so we have a clear track? i mean, if the car's upside down on the track [monaco, singapore, but any for that matter] then surely we're not going to have a VSC or a SC whilst a [deadly, heavy, helmetcrushing, murdering] caterpillar power loader truck is on track, right?
just on the t cam with the light to say its safe or not for marshals. is there a back up if the top of the car is stuck in gravel or broken off. as this would seem a bit of a loop hole to me