Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Wazari]

The new "Spec 4" in the pipeline is NOT an Illien designed PU. He had nothing to do with the upcoming PU. This is a "team wazari" designed ICE, PU. Rumor has it that Illien has seen and blessed this configuration PU but I would be quite surprised if this is true. Sometimes I just want to wrangle these journalist's necks.

Also I don't want to get into a "he said, she said" debate with anyone on this forum (life's too short) but many of the posts by Mr. godlameroso have merit and I would not call BS.

[PlatinumZealot]

This is ridiculous. Go away and read some basic ICE engineering books.

You're entitled to your opinion, it's a stupid opinion but you're entitled to it. If you actually knew me, or what I do, you'd realize how foolish you sound, so I can't take your ignorance personal. In fact you still haven't demonstrated where I have said "BS" all I see are childish accusations, a typical troll. Mods please delete all these posts as they're not constructive to the topic.

Your posts are not constructive to the topic,they are just flawed nonsense teories. Im trying to show you how stupid your teories are, but you keep on bullshiting on an on. I suggest you to start reading about the advantages of a turbocharger over a supercharger.

He said nothing wrong young Padawan.

[MrPotatoHead]

Please stop insulting each other before the mods clamp down and start deleting posts again.

It’s fair to call BS on someone if you also present evidence of why they are saying BS. But to just call BS without clarification doesn’t help anyone.

And stop believing half of what you read in the press

[diffuser]

The new "Spec 4" in the pipeline is NOT an Illien designed PU. He had nothing to do with the upcoming PU. This is a "team wazari" designed ICE, PU. Rumor has it that Illien has seen and blessed this configuration PU but I would be quite surprised if this is true. Sometimes I just want to wrangle these journalist's necks.

Also I don't want to get into a "he said, she said" debate with anyone on this forum (life's too short) but many of the posts by Mr. godlameroso have merit and I would not call BS.

THX Wazari.
We could have done without the God L'Ameroso's comment. He's already calling himself God.

Ay, chihuahua!

[Pedrohf]

Please stop insulting each other before the mods clamp down and start deleting posts again.

It’s fair to call BS on someone if you also present evidence of why they are saying BS. But to just call BS without clarification doesn’t help anyone.

And stop believing half of what you read in the press

I've already presented evidence of the BS.
Godlameroso thinks that it takes +80kW of pumping losses to drive a 80kW compressor, so he suggests to use the MGU-K to power it (taking 80kW from the ICE) instead.
This is completely nonsense, anyone with minimum turbocharger knowledge, knows that the advantage of a turbocharger over a supercharger, is that it doensn't need 80kW of power from the ICE to run a 80kW compressor, way less than that, as pumping losses are a small percentage of the total work done on the turbine.
This guy has no clue whatsoever about thermodynamics. This is a "templeofvtec" carguy, not an engine expert.

[ZakB]

They are done.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mcla ... lt-946783/

[wuzak]

Please stop insulting each other before the mods clamp down and start deleting posts again.

It’s fair to call BS on someone if you also present evidence of why they are saying BS. But to just call BS without clarification doesn’t help anyone.

And stop believing half of what you read in the press

I've already presented evidence of the BS.
Godlameroso thinks that it takes +80kW of pumping losses to drive a 80kW compressor, so he suggests to use the MGU-K to power it (taking 80kW from the ICE) instead.
This is completely nonsense, anyone with minimum turbocharger knowledge, knows that the advantage of a turbocharger over a supercharger, is that it doensn't need 80kW of power from the ICE to run a 80kW compressor, way less than that, as pumping losses are a small percentage of the total work done on the turbine.
This guy has no clue whatsoever about thermodynamics. This is a "templeofvtec" carguy, not an engine expert.

a) he isn't suggesting that the TC is run from the MGUK but the ES. WHich is fully charged (4MJ) before a qualifying lap.
b) the turbos in these power units are not like the ones in regular turbo cars. They are oversized, particularly the turbine. The result is that without using the MGUH to aid in spooling the turbo the lag would be measured in aeons.
c) normal turbo engines bypass much of the exhaust in order to maintain the boost the required level. In these PUs the wastegate is not used nearly as much, with the extra turbine power used to recover energy via the MGUH. This creates more back pressure than a normal turbo would see.
d) in qualifying or overtaking mode the wastegates can be opened to reduce the back pressure, but this means that the turbo won't have sufficient power to provide the required boost. So that power is provided by, or supplemented by, the MGUH drawing energy from the battery. With the lower back pressure but still the same boost the engine produces more power at the crankshaft.
e) energy flow between the MGUH and ES is unlimited.

[Tommy Cookers]

and this is the point where I say that what is being called back pressure is not really back pressure ......

if the induction pressure is 4 bar and the exhaust pressure is 5 bar that's back pressure
if the induction pressure is 4 bar and the exhaust pressure is 4 bar that's not back pressure
if the induction pressure is 4 bar and the exhaust pressure is 1 bar that's forward pressure

the back pressure mystique comes from NA where in most driving (because it's throttled) there's back pressure (useful for control of course)
I am assured that car turbos do not have back pressure


because of the MGUH F1 can have back pressure, neutral pressure and forward pressure

[nzjrs]

They are done.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mcla ... lt-946783/

From the article

Detailed analysis of reported gains that engine consultants Ilmor have helped Honda to are believed to have been insufficient to ease McLaren’s concerns about a lack of progress from the Japanese manufacturer.

Which is either wrong, per Wazari's comment that the next (4th) spec is not Ilmor derived, or they are already signing off on something like a end of year spec 5 which isn't looking good enough.

Or this is more media speculation for the clicks

[ZakB]

They are done.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mcla ... lt-946783/

From the article

Detailed analysis of reported gains that engine consultants Ilmor have helped Honda to are believed to have been insufficient to ease McLaren’s concerns about a lack of progress from the Japanese manufacturer.

Which is either wrong, per Wazari's comment that the next (4th) spec is not Ilmor derived, or they are already signing off on something like a end of year spec 5 which isn't looking good enough.

Or this is more media speculation for the clicks

This still seems the most likely.

http://www.marca.com/motor/formula1/201 ... b458f.html

Summary:
Honda says vibrations mostly fixed, others are more skeptical and claim that part of the problem is still there.
Another step forward after the summer break, probably not spec 4 but part of the spec 3 update. (called spec 4.0 now)
Baku update added 15 BHP.
Engine is still far of being competitive.
Spa update focuses on turbo and MGH-K
McLaren can only switch engines if Honda cancels the contract (ends in 2021)
Biggest update will come in October (40 BHP)
Not in Japan, VS or Mexico is more likely
Should close the gap to Ferrari and Mercedes within 40-50 BHP

[Joseki]

The new "Spec 4" in the pipeline is NOT an Illien designed PU. He had nothing to do with the upcoming PU. This is a "team wazari" designed ICE, PU. Rumor has it that Illien has seen and blessed this configuration PU but I would be quite surprised if this is true. Sometimes I just want to wrangle these journalist's necks.

Also I don't want to get into a "he said, she said" debate with anyone on this forum (life's too short) but many of the posts by Mr. godlameroso have merit and I would not call BS.

What is "spec 4"? Big update planned for later in the season or a incremental update for Monza?

[Pedrohf]

Please stop insulting each other before the mods clamp down and start deleting posts again.

It’s fair to call BS on someone if you also present evidence of why they are saying BS. But to just call BS without clarification doesn’t help anyone.

And stop believing half of what you read in the press

I've already presented evidence of the BS.
Godlameroso thinks that it takes +80kW of pumping losses to drive a 80kW compressor, so he suggests to use the MGU-K to power it (taking 80kW from the ICE) instead.
This is completely nonsense, anyone with minimum turbocharger knowledge, knows that the advantage of a turbocharger over a supercharger, is that it doensn't need 80kW of power from the ICE to run a 80kW compressor, way less than that, as pumping losses are a small percentage of the total work done on the turbine.
This guy has no clue whatsoever about thermodynamics. This is a "templeofvtec" carguy, not an engine expert.

a) he isn't suggesting that the TC is run from the MGUK but the ES. WHich is fully charged (4MJ) before a qualifying lap.
b) the turbos in these power units are not like the ones in regular turbo cars. They are oversized, particularly the turbine. The result is that without using the MGUH to aid in spooling the turbo the lag would be measured in aeons.
c) normal turbo engines bypass much of the exhaust in order to maintain the boost the required level. In these PUs the wastegate is not used nearly as much, with the extra turbine power used to recover energy via the MGUH. This creates more back pressure than a normal turbo would see.
d) in qualifying or overtaking mode the wastegates can be opened to reduce the back pressure, but this means that the turbo won't have sufficient power to provide the required boost. So that power is provided by, or supplemented by, the MGUH drawing energy from the battery. With the lower back pressure but still the same boost the engine produces more power at the crankshaft.
e) energy flow between the MGUH and ES is unlimited.

ES to MGUH qualifying mode makes sense, yes, but, no, he is not refering to qualifying. He proposes a 80kW from the ICE, via MGUK to power the MGUH, and run it as a electric supercharger.

Wazari confirmed that Honda sends electrical energy from the H to the ES, that to bypass the ES and send power directly from H to K and vice versa was difficult for them.

If they could they'd be able to exceed 4mj per lap. As the MGU-K is not limited by what it sends or receives to and from the MGU-H. The K can only send 2mj to the ES, but can probably skirt around this by sending it to the H, and having the H send it to the ES. Or maybe have the K send power to the H directly, and use the turbo in electric supercharger mode.

Maybe the extra power from reduced backpressure is enough to justify a persistent 80kW drag on the combustion engine. The number can be less depending on the blowdown contribution, which depends on the turbine, turbine inlet, and wastegates.

And then, he continues bullshitying:
Original post:

How do you know you're only saving 80kW of exhaust pumping losses? Even if that figure is correct, the electrical systems have very little loss, much lower than using a gear or pulley to power a traditional supercharger. Not to mention reacting much faster, while being able to adjust MAP and EMP precisely at different rpms. In any case all of this is moot until Honda gets more out of the combustion.

[wuzak]

ES to MGUH qualifying mode makes sense, yes, but, no, he is not refering to qualifying. He proposes a 80kW from the ICE, via MGUK to power the MGUH, and run it as a electric supercharger.

Wazari confirmed that Honda sends electrical energy from the H to the ES, that to bypass the ES and send power directly from H to K and vice versa was difficult for them.

If they could they'd be able to exceed 4mj per lap. As the MGU-K is not limited by what it sends or receives to and from the MGU-H. The K can only send 2mj to the ES, but can probably skirt around this by sending it to the H, and having the H send it to the ES. Or maybe have the K send power to the H directly, and use the turbo in electric supercharger mode.

Maybe the extra power from reduced backpressure is enough to justify a persistent 80kW drag on the combustion engine. The number can be less depending on the blowdown contribution, which depends on the turbine, turbine inlet, and wastegates.

What I read there is that he routes energy from the MGUK to the ES via the MGUH, to circumvent the rule about how much energy the MGUK can recover in a lap.

Not that they were using the MGUK to drive the MGUH as an electric supercharger.

[henry]

ES to MGUH qualifying mode makes sense, yes, but, no, he is not refering to qualifying. He proposes a 80kW from the ICE, via MGUK to power the MGUH, and run it as a electric supercharger.

Wazari confirmed that Honda sends electrical energy from the H to the ES, that to bypass the ES and send power directly from H to K and vice versa was difficult for them.

If they could they'd be able to exceed 4mj per lap. As the MGU-K is not limited by what it sends or receives to and from the MGU-H. The K can only send 2mj to the ES, but can probably skirt around this by sending it to the H, and having the H send it to the ES. Or maybe have the K send power to the H directly, and use the turbo in electric supercharger mode.

Maybe the extra power from reduced backpressure is enough to justify a persistent 80kW drag on the combustion engine. The number can be less depending on the blowdown contribution, which depends on the turbine, turbine inlet, and wastegates.

What I read there is that he routes energy from the MGUK to the ES via the MGUH, to circumvent the rule about how much energy the MGUK can recover in a lap.

Not that they were using the MGUK to drive the MGUH as an electric supercharger.

You make good point here. You read the post differently from Pedrohf.

We are very varied collection of people on this forum. Varied backgrounds, knowledge, experience, mental models and the terminology in them.

It is best to assume a fellow poster is trying to say something useful and try to understand it. If one encounters terminology that isn't familiar the right thing to do is seek to an explanation. Search engines can be useful. If you find an definition and you don't see how it fits explain your terminology and how your mental model works. If all else fails ignore the post. Otherwise you are tending to troll and no-one likes them.

[cyro_666]

So, can somebody (Wazari, mostly) explain which updates will come next? I think this MGU-H directly to MGU-K is really important, would be especially useful in Monza. It was obvious in Spa as well that that's what's missing. Qualifying was cool. First lap of race was great. But then the batteries ran dry and Alonso just started falling behind.

So what I want to know is which updates are scheduled up next?