Mercedes's performance consistency

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Edax
57
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:47 pm

Mercedes's performance consistency

Post by Edax » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:17 pm

This topic was split out of the Singapore GP thread

Phil wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:23 am
I personally think Mercedes will be more competitive at Singapore than they were in Monaco. Monaco is very very bumpy - much more than Singapore, I believe. Also, Monaco was relatively early in the season. The very narrow set-up window meant that Mercedes failed to get all tires into the correct working range equally. This may be less of a problem now that they understand the car better. Things looked rather good in Baku, but of course they had the luxury of longer straights there.
I think it is anyones guess including Mercedes'.

The cars are primadonna's, and have been for several years. They either get them working and are unbeatable or ( on rare occasions) they slide all over the place and eat up tyres. And where that happens is unpredictable. Singapore is maybe the most memorable case. But the same happened also in Austria, monaco and china. Both high and low downforce tracks. If anything the only connection I could think of be between bad performances is the higher than predicted temperatures in the weekend.

TAG
112
User avatar
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:18 pm
Location: in a good place

Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by TAG » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:11 pm

Edax wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:17 pm
The cars are primadonna's, and have been for several years. They either get them working and are unbeatable or ( on rare occasions) they slide all over the place and eat up tyres. And where that happens is unpredictable. Singapore is maybe the most memorable case. But the same happened also in Austria, monaco and china. Both high and low downforce tracks. If anything the only connection I could think of be between bad performances is the higher than predicted temperatures in the weekend.
Bottas won the race in Austria, and Hamilton started 8th on the grid. It's a notoriously difficult circuit to overtake on.

The only thing we know is that historically they've done poorly here in Singapore, they'll either have made progress in addressing their issues in these tight street circuits or they haven't. In any case, this is the only circuit that goes against their build, the rest are either very even with Ferrari or favor the Mercedes.
Countdown to 91: 7 more victories ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

PlatinumZealot
361
User avatar
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by PlatinumZealot » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:51 am

Shrieker wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:24 pm
Valtteri was less then five hundredths away from the Ferrari's in Monaco. It was the other Merc. driver that failed, not the car really. Ferrari will definitely be more competitive here than in Monza, but I would not rule out a Hamilton pole either.
It was the diva of the car remember. In contrast to qualifying the car failed for valterri in the race and begun to work for lewis! So it wasn't a driver issue.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

Shrieker
41
User avatar
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:41 pm

Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by Shrieker » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:38 am

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:51 am
Shrieker wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:24 pm
Valtteri was less then five hundredths away from the Ferrari's in Monaco. It was the other Merc. driver that failed, not the car really. Ferrari will definitely be more competitive here than in Monza, but I would not rule out a Hamilton pole either.
It was the diva of the car remember. In contrast to qualifying the car failed for valterri in the race and begun to work for lewis! So it wasn't a driver issue.
Interesting take there. Tho I should admit failing to get into q3 in Monaco is a bit of a bigger problem than scoring a good grid position and then slightly underperforming in the race, because of the car or not. I would still like to say Lewis failed that quali. No shame in this, these are people after all. Even Schumacher had his mistakes (plenty in fact).
Education is that which allows a nation free, independent, reputable life, and function as a high society; or it condemns it to captivity and poverty.
-Atatürk

Shrieker
41
User avatar
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:41 pm

Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by Shrieker » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:47 am

WaikeCU wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:56 pm
I personally think Hamilton will be mighty here. It all comes down to how the Merc behaves around this circuit. Lewis is great at street courses and if this isn't the best car suited for this track, the driver still can make the difference and with the momentum he has after Spa and Monza, he could be in a different zone. In 2009 the Mclaren certainely wasn't the best car around, but he did put that car on pole in Singapore with a mighty lap and also won the race as well. It all remains to be seen on how the Merc has overcome it's issues early in the season.
He has had up and down performances here over the years. He put in some great quali laps, and some other times was average. 2012 was the best one. He put over four tenths to the second placed driver, and over a half second to his team mate. Oddly enough the second placed man was Malders lol.

OTOH, Vettel has had superb performances here as well, and more consistent too. IF Mercedes don't suffer like in Monaco or Hungary, we might get a mighty battle. On a side note, it has never rained here during the race. It was always hyped, but never materialized.

What do you guys make of that ?
Education is that which allows a nation free, independent, reputable life, and function as a high society; or it condemns it to captivity and poverty.
-Atatürk

Vasconia
39
User avatar
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:45 am
Location: Basque Country

Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by Vasconia » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:33 am

Shrieker wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:38 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:51 am
Shrieker wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:24 pm
Valtteri was less then five hundredths away from the Ferrari's in Monaco. It was the other Merc. driver that failed, not the car really. Ferrari will definitely be more competitive here than in Monza, but I would not rule out a Hamilton pole either.
It was the diva of the car remember. In contrast to qualifying the car failed for valterri in the race and begun to work for lewis! So it wasn't a driver issue.
Interesting take there. Tho I should admit failing to get into q3 in Monaco is a bit of a bigger problem than scoring a good grid position and then slightly underperforming in the race, because of the car or not. I would still like to say Lewis failed that quali. No shame in this, these are people after all. Even Schumacher had his mistakes (plenty in fact).
Hamilton even being stellar, has more bad days that drivers like Alonso, Schumacher or Prost who were pretty consistent. Not saying Lewis is not consistent but 2016 showed that he has certain "bad" weekends. Singapur is not his best track and if the Mercedes is clearly behind I don´t see him fighting for the victory. But Lewis is Lewis and I can not be sure of this statement at a 100%. If he is 100% focused everything can happen.

About the rain here.... every year is the same but according to what I know rain does not usually come at this time of the day/night.

Ennis
9
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:47 am

Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by Ennis » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:56 am

Shrieker wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:38 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:51 am
Shrieker wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:24 pm
Valtteri was less then five hundredths away from the Ferrari's in Monaco. It was the other Merc. driver that failed, not the car really. Ferrari will definitely be more competitive here than in Monza, but I would not rule out a Hamilton pole either.
It was the diva of the car remember. In contrast to qualifying the car failed for valterri in the race and begun to work for lewis! So it wasn't a driver issue.
Interesting take there. Tho I should admit failing to get into q3 in Monaco is a bit of a bigger problem than scoring a good grid position and then slightly underperforming in the race, because of the car or not. I would still like to say Lewis failed that quali. No shame in this, these are people after all. Even Schumacher had his mistakes (plenty in fact).
Merc seemed to acknowledge that they knew exactly what the issue was with Hamilton's car, but by the time they figured it out they weren't allowed to change it.

With this in mind, I think Merc's struggles here are exaggerated. I do think it has the potential to be a 3 horse race, with Ferrari or RBR the frontrunner, but I don't think there is going to be a significant gap between any of them.

sAx
6
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:38 pm

Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by sAx » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:32 pm

Vasconia wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:33 am
Shrieker wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:38 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:51 am


It was the diva of the car remember. In contrast to qualifying the car failed for valterri in the race and begun to work for lewis! So it wasn't a driver issue.
Interesting take there. Tho I should admit failing to get into q3 in Monaco is a bit of a bigger problem than scoring a good grid position and then slightly underperforming in the race, because of the car or not. I would still like to say Lewis failed that quali. No shame in this, these are people after all. Even Schumacher had his mistakes (plenty in fact).
Hamilton even being stellar, has more bad days that drivers like Alonso, Schumacher or Prost who were pretty consistent. Not saying Lewis is not consistent but 2016 showed that he has certain "bad" weekends. Singapur is not his best track and if the Mercedes is clearly behind I don´t see him fighting for the victory. But Lewis is Lewis and I can not be sure of this statement at a 100%. If he is 100% focused everything can happen.

About the rain here.... every year is the same but according to what I know rain does not usually come at this time of the day/night.
59 Wins, 112 Podiums, 69 Poles...wouldn't want him to be more consistent than that would we?
Integrity, Trust, Respect.

Follow me: http://twitter.com/#!/sAx247

Shrieker
41
User avatar
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:41 pm

Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by Shrieker » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:37 pm

sAx wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:32 pm

59 Wins, 112 Podiums, 69 Poles...wouldn't want him to be more consistent than that would we?
HAM's a tad behind in percentages compared to the other greats, so he has a point in terms of consistency.
Education is that which allows a nation free, independent, reputable life, and function as a high society; or it condemns it to captivity and poverty.
-Atatürk

Restomaniac
3
Joined: Mon May 16, 2016 12:09 am
Location: Hull

Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by Restomaniac » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:16 pm

Shrieker wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:37 pm
sAx wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:32 pm

59 Wins, 112 Podiums, 69 Poles...wouldn't want him to be more consistent than that would we?
HAM's a tad behind in percentages compared to the other greats, so he has a point in terms of consistency.
Just the thought of Schumacher, Prost, Lauda, Senna, Hamilton, etc on the same track at the same time makes me happy and sad at the same time.

Just_a_fan
492
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by Just_a_fan » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:05 pm

Shrieker wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:37 pm
sAx wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:32 pm

59 Wins, 112 Podiums, 69 Poles...wouldn't want him to be more consistent than that would we?
HAM's a tad behind in percentages compared to the other greats, so he has a point in terms of consistency.
Wins %:
Hamilton: 29.35
Schumacher: 29.55
Senna: 25.31
Prost: 25.25
Vettel: 24.08

Poles %:
Hamilton: 34.33
Senna: 40.12
Vettel: 25.00
Schumacher: 22.08
Prost: 16.34

Podiums %:
Hamilton: 55.72
Prost: 52.48
Schumacher: 50.32
Vettel: 50.00
Senna: 49.38

Races finished in points position %:
Hamilton: 82.09
Vettel: 80.21
Schumacher: 71.75

Pole and win in same race:
Hamilton: 38
Schumacher: 40
Vettel: 29
Senna: 29
Prost: 18

Pole, win and fastest lap:
Hamilton: 14
Schumacher: 22
Vettel: 8
Prost: 8
Senna: 7

Grand slam / grand chelem:
Hamilton: 5
Schumacher: 5
Vettel: 4
Senna: 4

Hamilton has also won at every circuit he's raced in F1 except Baku. He's the only driver in history to win at least one race in every season in F1 (so far, obviously).

So your point about him in comparison with the best was? By these figures he's the most consistent of the lot!
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
492
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by Just_a_fan » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:07 pm

Restomaniac wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:16 pm

Just the thought of Schumacher, Prost, Lauda, Senna, Hamilton, etc on the same track at the same time makes me happy and sad at the same time.
So many egos and so much self-belief in one place. It would probably cause a black hole to form! :lol:
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

NathanOlder
120
User avatar
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:05 am
Location: Kent

Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by NathanOlder » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:41 pm

Just to think, someone would have to lose!!!!
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0

Does anyone play F1 2019 on Ps4, Now setting up a league at

https://rapidpixelracing.com

Jacinto
1
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:01 pm

Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by Jacinto » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:52 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:05 pm
Shrieker wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:37 pm
sAx wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:32 pm

59 Wins, 112 Podiums, 69 Poles...wouldn't want him to be more consistent than that would we?
HAM's a tad behind in percentages compared to the other greats, so he has a point in terms of consistency.
Wins %:
Hamilton: 29.35
Schumacher: 29.55
Senna: 25.31
Prost: 25.25
Vettel: 24.08

Poles %:
Hamilton: 34.33
Senna: 40.12
Vettel: 25.00
Schumacher: 22.08
Prost: 16.34

Podiums %:
Hamilton: 55.72
Prost: 52.48
Schumacher: 50.32
Vettel: 50.00
Senna: 49.38

Races finished in points position %:
Hamilton: 82.09
Vettel: 80.21
Schumacher: 71.75

Pole and win in same race:
Hamilton: 38
Schumacher: 40
Vettel: 29
Senna: 29
Prost: 18

Pole, win and fastest lap:
Hamilton: 14
Schumacher: 22
Vettel: 8
Prost: 8
Senna: 7

Grand slam / grand chelem:
Hamilton: 5
Schumacher: 5
Vettel: 4
Senna: 4

Hamilton has also won at every circuit he's raced in F1 except Baku. He's the only driver in history to win at least one race in every season in F1 (so far, obviously).

So your point about him in comparison with the best was? By these figures he's the most consistent of the lot!
It´s hard to compare Hamilton´s (or any other modern driver) consistency with Senna and Prost. It was common, in the 80´s, to retire in 40% of the races. In 1984, for example, Senna drove a Toleman that retired 8 times out of 16 races.

Since 2013, Hamilton retired 7 times, out of 90 races.

WaikeCU
71
User avatar
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 11:03 pm

Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by WaikeCU » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:05 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:05 pm
Shrieker wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:37 pm
sAx wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:32 pm

59 Wins, 112 Podiums, 69 Poles...wouldn't want him to be more consistent than that would we?
HAM's a tad behind in percentages compared to the other greats, so he has a point in terms of consistency.
Wins %:
Hamilton: 29.35
Schumacher: 29.55
Senna: 25.31
Prost: 25.25
Vettel: 24.08

Poles %:
Hamilton: 34.33
Senna: 40.12
Vettel: 25.00
Schumacher: 22.08
Prost: 16.34

Podiums %:
Hamilton: 55.72
Prost: 52.48
Schumacher: 50.32
Vettel: 50.00
Senna: 49.38

Races finished in points position %:
Hamilton: 82.09
Vettel: 80.21
Schumacher: 71.75

Pole and win in same race:
Hamilton: 38
Schumacher: 40
Vettel: 29
Senna: 29
Prost: 18

Pole, win and fastest lap:
Hamilton: 14
Schumacher: 22
Vettel: 8
Prost: 8
Senna: 7

Grand slam / grand chelem:
Hamilton: 5
Schumacher: 5
Vettel: 4
Senna: 4

Hamilton has also won at every circuit he's raced in F1 except Baku. He's the only driver in history to win at least one race in every season in F1 (so far, obviously).

So your point about him in comparison with the best was? By these figures he's the most consistent of the lot!
- Grabbed a race victory in every season he has been in F1 thus far.
- Grabbed pole position in every season he has been in F1 thus far.