2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Phil
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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On the topic of team-orders by Mercedes at Hungary:
Schuttelberg wrote:
02 Aug 2017, 12:57
If you ask my opinion, you have to respect HAM for his sportsman spirit. It was a very very respectful thing to do. However, the Bahrain non-swap leads me to believe there is more to this than just 'fair status' between the two drivers.

My hunch is that at the time, BOT wasn't a confirmed fixture in the Mercedes-Benz plans for 2018, now he is. So it makes no sense to have a disgruntled driver. Also, his own performance has been solid and instilled faith in the team compared to that time where they were willing to put all their eggs in the HAM basket.

...

Just my 2 cents. But again, massive massive respect for HAM. I'm very suspicious however of Mercedes' intentions and find all this 'team ethos' talks absolute bull sh!t. Wolff's reaction after the swap is a very resounding proof to this argument.
I thought of replying here since I think it's relevant to Team-Mercedes and how Toto and the Management of Mercedes have decided to run things.

As has been argued and pointed out before Hungary, Mercedes has been running things under the spirit of equality for quite some time. One can argue that from 2014 till 2016, it was their moral obligation to do so, because they were only battling themselves. So to issue team-orders in one drivers favor would be akin to artificially manipulating the race result and therefore the World-Drivers-Championship.

Mercedes was dealing with quite a bit of criticism for being that dominant, so the only way to keep the spectacle interesting was to indeed allow open racing between their two drivers, both in sole contention for the world-championship. I think if you look back to the years and seasons before, you can also see that Mercedes has always run things fairly equally and transparent for both their drivers. One exception was Malaysia 2013 when both Hamilton and Rosberg were battling for 3rd position at a very important race - the home race of major sponsor Petronas. Hamilton was leading and Rosberg was behind, but had pace. At the same time RedBull had the notorious multi-21 order. The reasons for keeping Hamilton ahead were given to that Mercedes (Brawn) felt that they were managing potential issues (not sure if heat, fuel or tires or a combination) and that both cars were ordered to "bring it home". Hamilton was ahead and Rosberg to the best of my knowledge attempted a few times (without success) and was then ordered clearly to stand down.

The podium was quite memorable because when confronted, Hamilton felt bad and did admit he wasn't happy about the team-order and that Rosberg deserved to be on the podium.

Anyway, fast forward to today and this season and I don't think Mercedes is all that different from the team they have been before. Yes, they are battling over both championships with Ferrari and every point counts, yet I do believe that both Toto and Lauda have a very strong desire to keep things equal for both drivers and that "how you win" is just as important as simply winning.

There is one underlying factor though that has been present even in the years between 2014 and 2016 in that the team-result is most important and more important than the drivers own ambition. Toto has said on multiple occasions that the driver drives for the team (is an employee of) and that the team is larger than the driver. The team consists of hundreds of employees. Because of that, the team-result is always most important.

This was quite evident in Monaco (2016) when Rosberg was ahead of Hamilton and Rosberg was obviously nursing some issue (tires out of temperature range). At that point, both Mercedes were behind Ricciardo who was building a large gap - behind Rosberg, there was a long train of cars being held up. Rosberg was ordered multiple times to "speed up" but failed to do so before then ordering him to free Hamilton. Mercedes didn't do that to help Hamilton's own WDC ambition but because as a team, they didn't want one of their cars to sabotage the race for both cars. If they had not freed the quicker car (Hamilton), the risk would have been being undercut by multiple cars behind eventually when nearing the pit stop window. Mercedes did the only sensible thing here.

In 2017 so far, there have been team-orders - yes - but not to the extent I believe it was to benefit one driver over the other, but to get the best possible team-result. A good example of this was in Bahrain. Bottas was leading the race initially, but was driving slow as a result of incorrect tire pressures. Ferrari gambled on strategy with an early pit under the safety car (or was it VSC?) and gained a position. The situation then was Vettel ahead of Bottas and Hamilton. Again, Bottas didn't have the pace and Mercedes took a long time (around 10 laps if I recall) until they decided to free Hamilton as Vettel at that point was building a gap. This wasn't a case of Mercedes helping Hamilton, but Mercedes helping Mercedes. Later in the race, Hamilton was closing quickly with a lot more pace on Bottas (as a result of different strategies) and they gave the order beforehand to not "hold him up" as at that point, he was still in contention for a possible win. It being Bahrain, it would probably also not have been impossible for Hamilton to get past Bottas with a legitimate pass, but every second was crucial vs Ferrari.

In Barcelona, as explained in this very topic (Link = viewtopic.php?p=699298#p699298), Bottas did hold up Vettel mid race, but at that point, he was actually battling for position with Vettel. Both Vettel and Hamilton were on different strategies to Bottas. Bottas didn't have the pace (as a result of the older engine) so his only chance of gaining a position was to go on a different strategy to the rest - that being a 1-stop and make track position count at a track as difficult to overtake as Barcelona. This had the beneficial side effect of Bottas eventually being in a position to hold up Vettel closing in from behind. This was not a case of "Bottas being the pawn for Hamilton" and even if he was, it was just as likely that the goal was to help the team gain the best result, regardless of which driver was leading the race. The way I see it, Barcelona and Bottas strategy was a net win/win for the team, Hamilton and Bottas himself. As explained when you follow the link, there was no risk behind from Ricciardo to not attempt the 1-stop with Bottas.

Hungary 2017 and we have the best indication that Mercedes is rather consistent in how they have decided to run the team for now. Throughout this topic, I have always questioned if Mercedes would be as "equal" if the WDC leading car (that being Hamilton) was the slower car ahead holding up Bottas, and if they would force a swap or indeed play the WDC game. After seeing Hamilton giving up his position to Bottas last corner despite building a sufficient gap, I am not that sure. Sure, at some point, Mercedes will focus on the WDC, but I am rather doubtful they will ever order one driver to slow down significantly to hand over a better position. I just don't think Mercedes, who is in this sport for image reasons, would dare do it.

They will happily order one driver to make room for the faster one, but I don't think they will order the driver ahead to artificially drive slow to enable the other to pass, except if it gains the team and the team alone. One can argue if this is smart or not and only time will tell.

As for the last question about Toto and Niki - from what I understand, Toto being upset post race was due to an argument with Niki. From what I could tell from the RTL broadcast, I think Niki wanted Hamilton to keep the position as he had build a sufficient gap and had the better pace to be "moral victor", where as Toto stood by his decision that if Hamilton failed to improve the team-result by overcoming one of the Ferraris that he should give the place back to Valteri.
Last edited by Phil on 04 Aug 2017, 16:07, edited 1 time in total.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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TAG
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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The thing is Phil, that there are instances, where there the team coming first and giving the benefit to your WDC lead driver aren't mutually exclusive. Hungary was one, Abu Dhabi last year was another. It is those situations where the entirety of the team coming first and Mercedes (Toto) still being obstinate about the standing team directive come off as bizarre and will put Mercedes at a disadvantage.

Imagine the egg on their face if Vestappen had closed the gap and overtaken Hamilton because of having to slow down and allow Bottas through.

Ferrari knows how to play that game because for many years that's the only game they could play. Remember Massa's transmission seal being cut so he'd take a grid drop and Fernando would get the clean side of the track? Forgot where it happened. Maybe Suzuka.

Now imagine Mercedes doing that? No, it wouldn't happen. I think that's something that has to be accepted, the way Ferrari fans have to accept that Kimi is never going to be allowed to win, if Vettel can benefit in his championship bid from an orchestrated position swap.
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Phil
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Good point about Ferrari braking the seal.

I think Mercedes has received a lot of criticism (even by me) from 2014 to 2016 in that I think the team has gone too far to "micro-manage" both their drivers. In an attempt to secure the best possible team-result, they have also seemingly limited how both drivers fight with each other. There have been instances where they put one driver on a different strategy (i.e. Bahrain 2014) and I do wonder sometimes if this was done to keep the battle from taking place on the track where the potential for a crash between the two would be higher. There has also been criticism that it's a bit contradictory to allow "open racing" but then employ a single strategist who sets the strategy for both drivers equally (opposed to having a strategist for each driver). Then you also have the point about data sharing etc.

At the end of the day, I can't fault Mercedes for doing what they have been doing. They have arguably done things right from the perspective that they have achieved 3 WDCs and 3 WCCs with minimum headache over their two, very competitive drivers. Micro managing or not, considering the bad blood between both Hamilton and Rosberg, I think they have done exceptionally well in managing that task. I also can't fault them for wanting to share that data between the two drivers in a bid to get both drivers to perform at their absolute best. Maybe this was going a bit too far in the years before when Mercedes was that dominant, but looking at this season and beyond, it's the right thing to do and perhaps the only way to remain competitive against a strong team like Ferrari.

I am also quite confident that so far, Mercedes has done nothing so far to suggest they are favoring one driver over another. They have been very transparent in what they do and how they do it and it's inline with their WCC priority. As the season progresses, I think this will change sooner or later - whoever driver will be in the lead will probably have a bit more support. That being said, it will be important for both drivers to perform at their best and not find themselves in a position where the team would have to order them to "speed up or make room". I think much will also depend on how fierce a competitor Ferrari ends up being. If they will continue to use Kimi as a pawn to maximize their results and with success, who knows, it might force Mercedes to rethink their equality approach sooner than later.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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@ClarkBT11
You can charge what you like, but it doesnt mean someone will pay it. Amazon sell Max caps with Toro Rosso on them, they charge £30. wonder why they dont charge £500 each for them as they can charge what they like.
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ClarkBT11
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Whatever Nathan, I've not said they will resale Botta's caps for £500. I could be totally wrong if Botta's gets an extension to his contract and more caps are made. I think there's bigger things to worry about than the price of hats. Does it matter that much to you?

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NathanOlder
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I just dont see how a Bottas hat will be worth decent money if he leaves at the end of the year that's all. I see the value drop through the floor if he leaves.

Id have one for a fiver though :roll: :)
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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I personally just don't understand why a team wouldn't maximise its chances of winning both championships; they may not think letting Hamilton keep his position represents this but I think most would argue that with his experience/track record/points already in the bag, he's far more likely to win the driver's title, and the constructors points are the same if you switch or not.

So I don't see why you don't do everything to maximise Lewis' chances. In Australia 2013 I was frustrated that Ferrari didn't move Massa out of Fernando's way - it was the first race of the season but, I'm sorry, everyone already knew Fernando had the greater chance of the championship- it was just extremely clear. Ditto Michael and Rubens - call it unfair but it's just the reality that one is consistently fast and the other occasionally matches or somehow gets ahead of his teammate. Same with Seb and Kimi now; if you let Kimi win Monaco or Hungary, you'll regret it next time he's circling around, unable to pass someone or qualifies 0.5 behind his teammate (and then inexplicably does a fastest lap when completely pointless).

I get that it's nice to let both guys have a fair shot, but sometimes it's just very very clear which horse to back.

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Phil
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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One could argue that isnt maximizing your assets and that having two competitive drivers trying to best each other while having faith and trust in the team outweighs the potential of points gained by that one predetermined driver.

I also believe that for some teams/manufacturers who are in F1 for the sole purpose of image, the question of how you win and lose is just as important as winning.

Mercedes might have just grown into that ethos however by being as dominant as they were.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Gentle irony that an ostensibly German team has applied the quintessential British idea of "it's not whether you win or lose, so much as how you play the game". By trying to be fair, they risk losing the title.

There are many who see MS's records as being tarnished by his having a totally subservient team mate. While MS was undoubtedly quicker than RB most of the time, some of the games played by the team didn't sit well with fans of F1 or real racing. Mercedes seem to be working doubly hard to ensure this doesn't happen with them. The results are purer for that approach.
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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To Phil's point, yes, I do see where you're coming from; equally though, teams don't always pick the fastest two drivers - if they did, Fernando's drive for next year would already be sewn up - and therefore two very equally matched drivers isn't as common as you would think.

Webber and Vettel are another case in point and, despite Webber's speed, it was quite clear who would more often than not produce the goods; despite the fact RB was in it for pure marketing, they'd still give Seb Webber's front wing, because they felt it maximises their chances of winning (yes, Webber won the race).

In the case of Mercedes, I think an impartial judge (and I speak as someone not particularly enamoured of Hamilton) would say that Lewis has the far greater shot at the championship.

Not sure I think it's right to attribute the 'it's how you play the game' as British - the expression was coined by an American - but i'll stop short of going further down that line for the good of th forum.

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dans79
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Is it just me, or does anyone else find this a little odd and interesting at the same time? Hamilton almost never tests, let alone volunteers to do it.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13166 ... relli-test
"I'll be doing a test later this week, which is very rare for me, I'm not a tester," said Hamilton.

"I offered to do it, so I'm looking forward to that - kind of."

Hamilton will drive on Thursday, before team-mate Valtteri Bottas takes over on Friday.
I think Merc might be using this as a way to fine tune their setup for Singapore, as Paul Ricard has some turns that are similar. Bottas tested in Hungry, so they might be able to apply what they learned there as well.
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garyjpaterson
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Yeah, I think both MB and Lewis are realising that this championship is going to be dead close, and every little bit of info they learn may be useful.

its 2018 tyres but perhaps they can still learn something about their current car. Certainly an attitude from Lewis we don't usually see, so he's definitely not lacking motivation this year.

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OneAlex
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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I definitely found it interesting that he was suddenly willing to tyre test. It shows he's back into looking for any edge.

When Lewis didn't want to take part in previous tests given Vettel always did it almost felt like he was coasting through F1.

Although I assume what you can personally learn is pretty marginal, it's still experience and input on the tyres with Lewis' driving style as opposed to Wehrlein's.

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lio007
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Does anybody know why Mercedes has a new Head of Aerodynamics since July? What happened to Mike Elliot?

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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lio007 wrote:
07 Sep 2017, 18:17
Does anybody know why Mercedes has a new Head of Aerodynamics since July? What happened to Mike Elliot?
He is promoted and now the Technology Director. Not sure what exactly is the role.

https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/merced ... e-elliott/

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